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Post by ede on Dec 25, 2021 19:56:44 GMT -5
To think this all began on Cleveland.com then league line up. Then Eugenes board. Then Tom's board, that I miss. Now this one. Been thinking of Starting another fan site myself š Gates could the most important figure in history of this program second only to Kevin Mackey. With Waters being 3rd. Transfers *Grady,Lewis and to a lesser extent Forbes)Undermined GW progress. Imagine if we never lost them. Ogelsby aside, kids wanna play for Gates and this transfer crazy world that's a good thing. IF we can keep keep Gates and that's a big if (the AD needs to be on the Phone fundraising) I see this program reaching new heights and living to the potential Kevin Mackey Envisioned It's always been there. Until the NCAA gave CSU the "death penalty"
hope everyone is having a good holiday. Looking forward to debating u all in 2022. And Gates landing that first Bluechip recruit.
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Post by theonetheonly on Dec 26, 2021 7:22:17 GMT -5
I think Waters was more important then Gates. Waters proved you could still win here at a time when many didnāt even believe it was possible anymore. I donāt think Gates takes the job without the success that Waters had.
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Post by ede on Dec 26, 2021 11:37:38 GMT -5
I think Waters was more important then Gates. Waters proved you could still win here at a time when many didnāt even believe it was possible anymore. I donāt think Gates takes the job without the success that Waters had. excellent point
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Post by gbanks on Dec 26, 2021 14:31:51 GMT -5
To think this all began on Cleveland.com then league line up. Then Eugenes board. Then Tom's board, that I miss. Now this one. Been thinking of Starting another fan site myself š Gates could the most important figure in history of this program second only to Kevin Mackey. With Waters being 3rd. Transfers *Grady,Lewis and to a lesser extent Forbes)Undermined GW progress. Imagine if we never lost them. Ogelsby aside, kids wanna play for Gates and this transfer crazy world that's a good thing. IF we can keep get Gates and that's a big if (the AD needs to be on the Phone fundraising) I see this program teaching new heights and living to the potential Kevin Mackey Envisioned It's always been there. Until the NCAA gave CSU the "death penalty" hope everyone is having a good holiday. Looking forward to debating u all in 2022. And Gates landing that first Bluechip recruit. Hi Ede, thanks for the holiday cheer. I agree with your coach ranking (so far). Gates needs additional time; before I would solidify the rankings. As I said in other posts, Mackey was a double edge sword. What he did was incredible. He took an obscure program in an obscure "motor oil sounding" conference to the verge (1 point away) of making it to the elite 8. This all took place while the AMCU-8 did not have an auto bid yet. The Vikes got in the tournament as an "At large" entry. To my knowledge, that still has never been replicated. That event shocked the system and rallied the community. Mackey "Run and Stun" style was replicated by other coaches; such as; Huggins. Too bad his fall was almost as dramatic and probation was a death sentence (which I believe to this day was crap). Waters was a good coach and his play style was close to Mackay on defense. The Wake Forest win was huge (as well as, some good OOC wins). As a fan, that brought attention back to the program. However, the landscape was transitioning on him created a couple of challenges. Suspect his coaching style impaired his relationship with the players. The NCAA was seeking a more up-tempo game; thus some of the rule changes devalued his defensive philosophy. The impact of these challenges, made games more difficult to win and players began to look else where. This killed the momentum of the early success. As for Gates, his start was not ideal. He entered a program with very few players and it was insanely late in the recruitment year. Kudos to him for being able to quickly assemble a team. For his encore act, the next year the team went to the NCAAs. Now he needs to win some big OOC games and win games in the NCAAs.
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Post by ede on Dec 26, 2021 17:43:14 GMT -5
Well said. Gates has the potential to "Our Bob Huggins" if we can keep away from the P5 programs long enough. Yeah hard to believe in those days Cleveland State was once ranked 12th in the preseason poll in Street&Smith. Gates can recapture that magic. He's a hungry up and come just like Garrett. The key to keeping a quality coach is $$$$$$. and booster. CSU doesn't have the Millionaire/Billionaire boosters. Or a Billion dollar endowment like Loyola. So fundraising important. As for the "death penalty" thing. Everyone in the NCAA knew that was bullshit. The late great Jerry Tarkanian had a famous joke. "The NCAA got so mad at Kentucky they gave Cleveland State another years probation. NCAA has always been bias, in favor of the blue bloods. That's what's destroying MM basketball and how Cleveland State got Poached in the mid 2000s. Ike Nowamo,Lomomba,Lewis,Forbes,Grady. Imagine if we kept all that talent. Hopefully Gates can keep our best talent here with mature team players. Ogelsby wanted to be "the man" on this team and wasn't patient. playing behind Gomillion and Hodge. Now he's transferring again. Wonder if Gates would take him back.
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Post by stanley on Dec 31, 2021 0:18:05 GMT -5
Fair point on Waters. He brought the program back from the abyss.
Gates did not only keep just about every one of his kids here, he added even more. The only one of a modicum of significance he lost was Oglesby, and at the end of the day, the program doesn't need him with what they've added/are adding.
And no, I'm fairly confident that Gates would have no interest in taking Oglesby back after he found that grass is not greener.
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Post by ede on Dec 31, 2021 1:42:12 GMT -5
Fair point on Waters. He brought the program back from the abyss. Gates did not only keep just about every one of his kids here, he added even more. The only one of a modicum of significance he lost was Oglesby, and at the end of the day, the program doesn't need him with what they've added/are adding. And no, I'm fairly confident that Gates would have no interest in taking Oglesby back after he found that grass is not greener. It wouldn't suprise me if he did though.I can't picture Gates holding a grudge. If only AO was patient and ignored the other voices.if that were the case.
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Post by ede on Dec 31, 2021 1:42:54 GMT -5
Waters got a raw deal in the end I feel
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Post by gbanks on Dec 31, 2021 9:12:43 GMT -5
Waters got a raw deal in the end I feel Why do you think that? He appeared to leave on his own terms. Granted, I have no visibility into the back door politics.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Dec 31, 2021 14:23:56 GMT -5
I think Waters was more important then Gates. Waters proved you could still win here at a time when many didnāt even believe it was possible anymore. I donāt think Gates takes the job without the success that Waters had. I agree. Look at our program historically. Going all the way back to Homer Woodling at Fenn College, the program has had exactly 3 coaches with career winning records: Mackey, Waters and Gates. Not even the legendary John McLendon had a winning record. What Mackey did was truly remarkable. He took over a program that had won about 30 percent of its games over the prior 50+ seasons and won 67 percent of his games while making a sweet 16. Then after the scandal, the program eventually spiraled back down to its previous level of ineptitude. Mike Boyd had one 20 win season (with some of Mackeyās left over players and a few highly touted recruits of his own) sandwiched between 5 other seasons of mediocrity, plus he led the program to probation. Then Rollie Massamino had a similar trajectory with a 4 year rebuild leading to one 19 win season and a quick crash below .500 in his final two seasons. There was no probation in this era, but we did have star players robbing MLB pitchers for jewelry. Then came the disastrous Mike Garland era. The cupboard was bare when he came in but he didnāt do much to change that. His staff was one of the worst youāll ever see in terms of experience. Rick Albro was associate HC after a .500 career at a D3 college, Luke Brown was in his first season after being a GA, and the only assistant with D1 coaching experience was Sean Bledsoe with 2 years under his belt at BG. Although they did bring in a handful of good players (Raheem Moss, Vic Morris, Patrick Tatham, Carlos English), a majority of their recruits were D2/NAIA types (many of them transferred down to finish their careers). The best thing that came from this tenure was JāNathan Bullock in the last season. Then Waters came in and āflipped the scriptā as he would say. He completely changed the culture, upgraded the level of recruits we could attract and became the programās winningest coach along the way. I think he was building a Sweet 16/Elite 8 type of roster before all the transfers and who knows how his tenure finishes if he gets a chance to coach that team at full strength. Now it looks like we may be seeing history repeat itself. After the Waters era ended in mediocrity, Felton came in and immediately scorched any remaining foundation to the earth. And then in comes Gates, looking very much like Mackey and Waters before him. Hopefully this time it is sustainable instead of an isolated peak spaced between years of lowly valleys.
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Post by ede on Dec 31, 2021 15:33:55 GMT -5
Waters got a raw deal in the end I feel Why do you think that? He appeared to leave on his own terms. Granted, I have no visibility into the back door politics.Ā Remember when they hired Felton? Waters said "I didn't want to go out this way" Waters was building something special til the rug was pulled out from under him. Grady Lewis and to a lesser extent Forbes kinda back stabbed him. Image of we kept them. That was going to be a special team. Hell we came close to landing Uni brow himself that how good Waters was at evaluating talent. Izzo and Calipari ended up benefiting from it. Especially Izzo. I wish the three of them Geqdy,Lewis,Forbes the best,but I'll always have a bit of bug up my ass against the three of them for that reason.
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Post by gbanks on Dec 31, 2021 17:55:18 GMT -5
Why do you think that? He appeared to leave on his own terms. Granted, I have no visibility into the back door politics. Remember when they hired Felton? Waters said "I didn't want to go out this way" Waters was building something special til the rug was pulled out from under him. Grady Lewis and to a lesser extent Forbes kinda back stabbed him. Image of we kept them. That was going to be a special team. Hell we came close to landing Uni brow himself that how good Waters was at evaluating talent. Izzo and Calipari ended up benefiting from it. Especially Izzo. I wish the three of them Geqdy,Lewis,Forbes the best,but I'll always have a bit of bug up my ass against the three of them for that reason. I think it was TOTO who eluded to this a while back on the previous board. Paraphrasing his thoughts: Waters style of coaching was not suitable to the generation of players he was coaching. If you believe that, then you have to say they left because he ran them off. I suspect TOTO is much closer to age group of those kids than I am and would provide a better perspective of the players point of view. When Waters said "I didn't want to go out this way". I always took it that he had rather handed over a program that was still winning. I believe Waters had made up his mind it was time to hang it up.
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Post by ede on Dec 31, 2021 18:26:32 GMT -5
Remember when they hired Felton? Waters said "I didn't want to go out this way" Waters was building something special til the rug was pulled out from under him. Grady Lewis and to a lesser extent Forbes kinda back stabbed him. Image of we kept them. That was going to be a special team. Hell we came close to landing Uni brow himself that how good Waters was at evaluating talent. Izzo and Calipari ended up benefiting from it. Especially Izzo. I wish the three of them Geqdy,Lewis,Forbes the best,but I'll always have a bit of bug up my ass against the three of them for that reason. I think it was TOTO who eluded to this a while back on the previous board. Paraphrasing his thoughts: Waters style of coaching was not suitable to the generation of players he was coaching. If you believe that, then you have to say they left because he ran them off. I suspect TOTO is much closer to age group of those kids than I am and would provide a better perspective of the players point of view. WhenĀ Waters said "I didn't want to go out this way". I always took it that he had rather handed over a program that was still winning.Ā I believe Waters had made up his mind it was time to hang it up.Ā Ā Good point. Perhaps the game passed him buy. CSU has had some amazing talent in thise days from Rob Edward who's in the NBA now to Bryn Forbes. Maybe waters just failed to adjust with the times. We've finally found that young up and comer looking to make a name for himself. If only we had the boosters to keep him. Hope we can find then and soon.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Dec 31, 2021 18:33:21 GMT -5
Coach Waters released a book called ā10 principles of a character coachā that actually touches on how his career ended. Itās actually an interesting read for us fans because he mostly uses his time at CSU to illustrate his points and he goes through very specific situations with different CSU teams and players.
He did write about losing the transfers and how the rules were changed which made his style of play harder to coach. Because of the mass exodus of talent they had to rely on guys who werenāt ready (or able) to lead the team to success. Because of that they had some unexpected down years. And before they could bring in the next group of talented players it was time to retire. Thatās where the āI didnāt want to go out like thatā comes from. I believe he was ready to leave around the time he did, but in his mind he wouldāve been coming off some great seasons that wouldāve made the transition easier. And since they had some down years, he wanted to stay long enough to turn it back around but he didnāt have it in him (or wasnāt given the opportunity).
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Post by ede on Dec 31, 2021 22:20:43 GMT -5
Coach Waters released a book called ā10 principles of a character coachā that actually touches on how his career ended. Itās actually an interesting read for us fans because he mostly uses his time at CSU to illustrate his points and he goes through very specific situations with different CSU teams and players. He did write about losing the transfers and how the rules were changed which made his style of play harder to coach. Because of the mass exodus of talent they had to rely on guys who werenāt ready (or able) to lead the team to success. Because of that they had some unexpected down years. And before they could bring in the next group of talented players it was time to retire. Thatās where the āI didnāt want to go out like thatā comes from. I believe he was ready to leave around the time he did, but in his mind he wouldāve been coming off some great seasons that wouldāve made the transition easier. And since they had some down years, he wanted to stay long enough to turn it back around but he didnāt have it in him (or wasnāt given the opportunity). that clears things up. I think it was the latter.
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Post by ede on Jan 10, 2022 22:00:15 GMT -5
College insider top 25: #21 Cleveland State
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Post by gbanks on Jan 11, 2022 12:20:36 GMT -5
College insider top 25: #21 Cleveland State College insider top 25:Note Oakland is listed at # 15. Good to see HL represented.
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Post by azvike83 on Jan 11, 2022 13:12:19 GMT -5
Wright State in the mix as well
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Feb 5, 2022 11:31:40 GMT -5
Question for next yearās roster. Do we return any āsuper seniorsā using the Covid exception? By my count, Gomillion, Hodge, Johnson, Parker, Hill and Greene would all be eligible. Plus, Iād have to wonder if Beaudion could get an extra medical year.
Weāll lose Patton, Finstuen and Jack, and Iād have to imagine Big Al will move on even if he doesnāt play another game and could get a medical hardship. Heāll be working on his doctorate soon.
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Post by gbanks on Feb 5, 2022 12:45:06 GMT -5
Question for next yearās roster. Do we return any āsuper seniorsā using the Covid exception? By my count, Gomillion, Hodge, Johnson, Parker, Hill and Greene would all be eligible. Plus, Iād have to wonder if Beaudion could get an extra medical year. Weāll lose Patton, Finstuen and Jack, and Iād have to imagine Big Al will move on even if he doesnāt play another game and could get a medical hardship. Heāll be working on his doctorate soon. Unless there is a big issue that develops, I think they will all be back (including Beaudion). I really think they will all leverage their COVID exception. It appears that this group will likes playing together and Gates has a deep rotation. Therefore they will get their minutes. If this team learns to score more points, the rotation minutes will increase. This will pay off as the season moves into the late February. Watching how Gates crew recruits, (JUCOs and redshirt Freshmen) this team will always be one of the veteran teams in the HL. With Chemistry, veterans, and deep rotations, the Vikes should be in position to contend in the HL each year.
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Post by ac on Feb 5, 2022 14:29:14 GMT -5
I don't think Beaudoin has any eligibility left as well as Patton jack finestuen & Eichelberger. All are done
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Feb 5, 2022 14:52:27 GMT -5
I don't think Beaudoin has any eligibility left as well as Patton jack finestuen & Eichelberger. All are done He doesnāt, except heās going to miss all but 1.5 games of his senior season. Thatās a prime case for a medical hardship. The only question is would they grant that to someone who was already playing on the ābonusā senior year.
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Post by ac on Feb 5, 2022 15:45:07 GMT -5
Also I think they expect to have him back playing again this year
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Post by gbanks on Feb 5, 2022 18:19:43 GMT -5
I don't think Beaudoin has any eligibility left as well as Patton jack finestuen & Eichelberger. All are done He doesnāt, except heās going to miss all but 1.5 games of his senior season. Thatās a prime case for a medical hardship. The only question is would they grant that to someone who was already playing on the ābonusā senior year. I was thinking Medical Redshirt like Grady should be available to Beaudoin if they desire the execute it. I don't think the NCAA will create an issue regarding the COVID Redshirt year.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Feb 5, 2022 19:00:32 GMT -5
Also I think they expect to have him back playing again this year Has there been any report on this? I havenāt seen anything either way. The only thing Iāve seen is Gates being quoted as there was surgery on a āsprainā and there was no timetable for his return. As I mentioned at the time, an ankle sprain by definition is a partially torn ligament. My understanding is that typically surgery isnāt done unless itās a reconstruction to repair a complete tear or to tighten multiple partially torn ligaments. The timetable for a reconstruction is 4-6 months. Thatās a season ending surgery. Aligning with that timeline, Iāve heard more than 1 visiting announcer on the ESPN+ streak mention Beaudion as being out for the year. But, nothing official (and Iām not a doctor).
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Post by ac on Feb 5, 2022 19:09:07 GMT -5
Somebody on Twitter said he was on court working before game last week
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Post by ac on Feb 5, 2022 19:13:07 GMT -5
Correction I believe I heard on the radio pregame when they went through injury report that Beaudoin was on court working out
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Feb 5, 2022 19:29:10 GMT -5
Correction I believe I heard on the radio pregame when they went through injury report that Beaudoin was on court working out Thanks. I hope he makes it back. But getting a workout in and being ready to return to competition are two different things.
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Post by ede on Feb 12, 2022 23:03:18 GMT -5
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Feb 13, 2022 7:53:02 GMT -5
Thanks for posting ede. Pluto seems plugged in with sources but less familiar with specific nuances. For example, heās repeatedly written that CSU split or tied for the regular season championship last year. We did have the same record as WSU but we were the outright champions due to the formula. Similarly, I wouldnāt expect him to be able to breakdown the differences between the types of seniors on our roster and why some are eligible to return for their Covid year. That said, I think itās a good thing that he mentions Beaudion getting a medical redshirt and the other eligible seniors returning next year. My sense is that type of info would be fed to him directly from an inside source, likely Garrett or even Gates himself. And if theyāre feeling good about those guys returning I would think theyāve already had those conversations.
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