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Post by vikesfan on Dec 2, 2022 10:16:35 GMT -5
Putting together a thread to keep where the HL teams are ranked in Ken Pom…
As of December 2:
YSU - 156
WSU - 201
PFW - 202
NKU - 209
UDM - 210
CSU - 217
MKE - 260
RMU - 270
OAK - 306
GB - 358
IUPUI - 363
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Post by vikesfan on Dec 5, 2022 6:38:30 GMT -5
After the opening weekend of HL play:
YSU - 146
CSU - 200
WSU - 218
PFW - 204
NKU - 209
UDM - 225
MKE - 259
RMU - 266
OAK - 307
GB - 358
IUPUI - 363
Conference RPI currently sits at 30/32 conferences.
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Post by ede on Dec 5, 2022 18:11:28 GMT -5
After the opening weekend of HL play: YSU - 146 CSU - 200 WSU - 218 PFW - 204 NKU - 209 UDM - 225 MKE - 259 RMU - 266 OAK - 307 GB - 358 IUPUI - 363 Conference RPI currently sits at 30/32 conferences. it's a shame what has happened to the Horizon League once a top 11 conference smh |
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Post by gbanks on Dec 5, 2022 18:37:42 GMT -5
After the opening weekend of HL play: YSU - 146 CSU - 200 WSU - 218 PFW - 204 NKU - 209 UDM - 225 MKE - 259 RMU - 266 OAK - 307 GB - 358 IUPUI - 363 Conference RPI currently sits at 30/32 conferences. it's a shame what has happened to the Horizon League once a top 11 conference smh The HL teams are not winning OOC games against quality oppenents. Thus, the only thing a HL team plays for is to win the HLT. Nothing else matters. Being king of the ant hill is nothing brag about. |
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Post by vikesfan on Dec 7, 2022 8:59:08 GMT -5
Adding in NET rankings as well… Ken Pom ranking first, NET second.
YSU - 144, 88
CSU - 206, 145
PFW - 208, 258
NKU - 212, 256
WSU - 219, 275
UDM - 227, 192
MKE - 260, 162
RMU - 267, 283
OAK - 313, 347
GB - 358, 359
IUPUI - 363, 361
Both are out of 363 teams. GB and IUPUI are baaaaad. Interesting disconnect between Ken Pom and NET. Impressed with CSU’s. NET ranking. And look at YSU…
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Post by vikesfan on Dec 12, 2022 16:41:42 GMT -5
Updated 12/12 after a couple non-conference losses for the Vikings:
Again, Ken Pom first and NET second. PFW up big here, so is UDM. CSU the big loser.
YSU - 149, 108
PFW - 171, 162
UDM - 202, 155
WSU - 211, 247
CSU - 216, 177
NKU - 225, 279
RMU - 259, 252
MKE - 260, 168
OAK - 305, 339
GB - 356, 351
IUPUI - 363, 361
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Post by csuvikings2014 on Dec 19, 2022 17:08:36 GMT -5
After the opening weekend of HL play: YSU - 146 CSU - 200 WSU - 218 PFW - 204 NKU - 209 UDM - 225 MKE - 259 RMU - 266 OAK - 307 GB - 358 IUPUI - 363 Conference RPI currently sits at 30/32 conferences. it's a shame what has happened to the Horizon League once a top 11 conference smh When you have two programs as bad as Green Bay and IUPUI, you have no chance as a conference. Green Bay has been good in the past. Having only one bad program like Green Bay that used to be decent gives you a chance at some point of moving back up the rankings. Adding IUPUI killed any chance the Horizon League has at flirting with a top ten conference ranking ever again. |
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Post by Admin on Dec 20, 2022 12:33:00 GMT -5
The top of the conference is just as bad as the bottom. Look at the rankings this year. The BEST team in the conference per KenPom is YSU, ranked 151 (current ranking as of today). Last year the top ranked team was Wright state, ranked 172.
Let's go back 10 years. 151 YSU would have been the fifth-best team, not number one. a year before that, 11 years ago, they would have been the sixth best team.
It's not a bottom teams aren't as good, or a top teams aren't as good issue. The conference as a whole just sucks. That's the reality that isn't changing.
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Post by Admin on Dec 20, 2022 12:48:27 GMT -5
Horizon League conference ranking, since 2001-2002 by year (per KenPom):
01-02: 11th
02-03: 10th
03-04: 14th
04-05: 15th
05-06: 15th
06-07: 11th
07-08: 11th
08-09: 11th
09-10: 12th
10-11: 10th
11-12: 13th
12-13: 12th
13-14: 12th
14-15: 14th
15-16: 16th
16-17: 20th
17-18: 24th
18-19: 18th
19-20: 22nd
20-21: 20th
21-22: 26th
22-23: 24th (current season)
As you can see, the drop off is pretty obvious and evident and really occurs after the 14-15 season. 02-03 season through the 14-15 season, you have 13 years of a solid mid major conference that was never ranked worse than 15th, and as high as 10th. No sign of the conference getting any better as a whole as everyone can see from the rankings. It's become a low major and will remain that way for the forseeable future.
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Post by csuvikings2014 on Dec 20, 2022 21:27:36 GMT -5
Horizon League conference ranking, since 2001-2002 by year (per KenPom): 01-02: 11th 02-03: 10th 03-04: 14th 04-05: 15th 05-06: 15th 06-07: 11th 07-08: 11th 08-09: 11th 09-10: 12th 10-11: 10th 11-12: 13th 12-13: 12th 13-14: 12th 14-15: 14th 15-16: 16th 16-17: 20th 17-18: 24th 18-19: 18th 19-20: 22nd 20-21: 20th 21-22: 26th 22-23: 24th (current season) As you can see, the drop off is pretty obvious and evident and really occurs after the 14-15 season. 02-03 season through the 14-15 season, you have 13 years of a solid mid major conference that was never ranked worse than 15th, and as high as 10th. No sign of the conference getting any better as a whole as everyone can see from the rankings. It's become a low major and will remain that way for the forseeable future. The sustained big drop starts at 17-18. That's the year IUPUI joined the conference. The ultimate problem is that when you have one program ranked dead last in division one and another (Green Bay) not far behind, you force a low ceiling onto the rest of the teams in the conference. Even if some of the teams play well in the non-conference season, they're still forced to play 4 games against teams ranked worse than 350. You'll lose ground even when you win those games. Lose against one of them and it's a major drop. That's why the top ranked team in the conference keeps getting lower. |
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Post by gbanks on Dec 22, 2022 12:22:29 GMT -5
Horizon League conference ranking, since 2001-2002 by year (per KenPom): 01-02: 11th 02-03: 10th 03-04: 14th 04-05: 15th 05-06: 15th 06-07: 11th 07-08: 11th 08-09: 11th 09-10: 12th 10-11: 10th 11-12: 13th 12-13: 12th 13-14: 12th 14-15: 14th 15-16: 16th 16-17: 20th 17-18: 24th 18-19: 18th 19-20: 22nd 20-21: 20th 21-22: 26th 22-23: 24th (current season) As you can see, the drop off is pretty obvious and evident and really occurs after the 14-15 season. 02-03 season through the 14-15 season, you have 13 years of a solid mid major conference that was never ranked worse than 15th, and as high as 10th. No sign of the conference getting any better as a whole as everyone can see from the rankings. It's become a low major and will remain that way for the forseeable future. The sustained big drop starts at 17-18. That's the year IUPUI joined the conference. The ultimate problem is that when you have one program ranked dead last in division one and another (Green Bay) not far behind, you force a low ceiling onto the rest of the teams in the conference. Even if some of the teams play well in the non-conference season, they're still forced to play 4 games against teams ranked worse than 350. You'll lose ground even when you win those games. Lose against one of them and it's a major drop. That's why the top ranked team in the conference keeps getting lower. Agreed boat anchors don't help the cause. The teams overall ranked higher during those years. During the high points, you may have 2 to 3 teams in the top 100 and the bulk of the remaining teams in the 100s. Several of Waters teams were in the top 100s. My preference was to pick FT Wayne over IUPUI during that phase of the expansion. Yes, there were finacial concerns; however, they were the much better program. I think IUPUI was chosen was b/c their institution was more in line with UIC and MKE. On the other hand; GB, shot themselves in the foot. They ousted their previous coach, bought out the remainder of his contract and hired someones buddy. That was a shame. A good program reduced to one of the worst teams in DI. |
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Post by Admin on Dec 22, 2022 12:34:10 GMT -5
Also the Green Bay program has really gone downhill and bottomed out. 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 there were the number 71 team in the country. Last year and this year they are 343 and 353, respectively.
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Post by csuvikings2014 on Dec 23, 2022 20:19:45 GMT -5
Green Bay's fall has been surprising and fast. I can't see them continuing with Ryan much longer.
It's no secret that the Horizon League was pushing for IUPUI for years because they were in the league's backyard. My guess is that the member institutions that finally caved and voted them in are experiencing buyer's remorse. Gone are the days of the 1 seed hosting the Horizon League tournament before a packed house with a 12-14 seed awaiting the winner in the NCAA tournament. With the Horizon League tournament being played in IUPUI's empty and lifeless home arena permanently, and a 16 seed the prize, the IUPUIification of the league is complete.
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Post by ede on Dec 24, 2022 0:25:04 GMT -5
Green Bay's fall has been surprising and fast. I can't see them continuing with Ryan much longer. It's no secret that the Horizon League was pushing for IUPUI for years because they were in the league's backyard. My guess is that the member institutions that finally caved and voted them in are experiencing buyer's remorse. Gone are the days of the 1 seed hosting the Horizon League tournament before a packed house with a 12-14 seed awaiting the winner in the NCAA tournament. With the Horizon League tournament being played in IUPUI's empty and lifeless home arena permanently, and a 16 seed the prize, the IUPUIification of the league is complete. One word Lecrone, probably a nice guy,but he had no vision for the conference. And the person who replaced him has an awful resume, the other ADs had a hand in this as well. Lecrone never took advantage when we had a hot Butler to add Murray State or Belmont. Look at the WCC they took advantage of their powerhouse programs i.e. Zags and St.Marys and belt a top 10 a league. Look how San Francisco and LMU are emerging. Poor leadership at the top brought us to this. Summit is now the better league. Although we did ok against the MAC this year. |
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Post by csuvikings2014 on Dec 26, 2022 11:49:56 GMT -5
Whenever the Horizon League wants to add teams, it almost always has looked to the Summit League. The IUPUI add has been an utter disaster for the other member schools' rankings, and it's the one the league office wanted the most.
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Post by gbanks on Dec 27, 2022 11:22:21 GMT -5
From the point of view of the Massey Composite of rating systems, the HL is 22 of 33 (as of 12/25/2022 - Merry Christmas). Massey Ratings - College Basketball Ranking Composite1 Big 12 2 Big 10 3 Southeastern 4 Big East 5 Pac 12 6 Mountain West 7 Atlantic Coast 8 West Coast 9 American Athletic 10 Conference USA 11 Atlantic 10 12 Western Athletic 13 Missouri Val 14 Sun Belt 15 Ivy League 16 Big West 17 Atlantic Sun 18 Mid-American 19 Southern 20 Big Sky 21 Colonial 22 Horizon23 Summit Lg 24 Metro Atlantic 25 Big South 26 America East 27 Patriot League 28 Mid-Eastern AC 29 OH Valley 30 Southland 31 Southwestern AC 32 Northeast 33 D1 Independent |
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Post by vikesfan on Jan 17, 2023 14:47:12 GMT -5
Updated 1/17:
YSU - 113, 103
CSU - 182, 154
PFW - 183, 184
UDM - 207, 217
WSU - 210, 206
NKU - 222, 221
MKE - 231, 173
RMU - 261, 266
OAK - 272, 275
GB - 360, 359
IUPUI - 361, 361
Conference ranks: 27/33 in RPI.
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Post by Unknown on Jan 17, 2023 18:26:37 GMT -5
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Post by Unknown on Jan 17, 2023 18:27:59 GMT -5
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Post by gbanks on Jan 18, 2023 10:16:44 GMT -5
From the point of view of the Massey Composite of rating systems, the HL is 22 of 33. Considering that OOC games are over, I do not expect much change in conference ratings. Massey Ratings - College Basketball Ranking Composite1 Big 12 2 Big 10 3 Southeastern 4 Big East 5 Pac 12 6 Mountain West 7 Atlantic Coast 8 American Athletic 9 West Coast 10 Conference USA 11 Atlantic 10 12 Western Athletic 13 Missouri Val 14 Sun Belt 15 Ivy League 16 Big West 17 Mid-American 18 Atlantic Sun 19 Southern 20 Big Sky 21 Colonial 22 Horizon23 Metro Atlantic 24 Summit Lg 25 Big South 26 America East 27 Patriot League 28 Mid-Eastern AC 29 OH Valley 30 Southland 31 Southwestern AC 32 Northeast 33 D1 Independent |
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Jan 18, 2023 10:53:12 GMT -5
From the point of view of the Massey Composite of rating systems, the HL is 22 of 33. Considering that OOC games are over, I do not expect much change in conference ratings. Massey Ratings - College Basketball Ranking Composite1 Big 12 2 Big 10 3 Southeastern 4 Big East 5 Pac 12 6 Mountain West 7 Atlantic Coast 8 American Athletic 9 West Coast 10 Conference USA 11 Atlantic 10 12 Western Athletic 13 Missouri Val 14 Sun Belt 15 Ivy League 16 Big West 17 Mid-American 18 Atlantic Sun 19 Southern 20 Big Sky 21 Colonial 22 Horizon23 Metro Atlantic 24 Summit Lg 25 Big South 26 America East 27 Patriot League 28 Mid-Eastern AC 29 OH Valley 30 Southland 31 Southwestern AC 32 Northeast 33 D1 Independent That could put the conference champ around the 14 line in the NCAA tournament. Not too bad and much better than recent years. Obviously it would have to be one of the top rated teams to not fall. But upsets in other conferences would help too. |
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why4
New Member
Posts: 40
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Post by why4 on Jan 29, 2023 11:30:23 GMT -5
We should be more like 18-20. Top to bottom, we’re better than the Colonial, MAC and Big Sky.
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Post by vikesfan on Jan 29, 2023 14:45:31 GMT -5
We should be more like 18-20. Top to bottom, we’re better than the Colonial, MAC and Big Sky. It is incredible how top heavy the MAC is, but their top is better than ours. We also have worse bad team than they do. But the middle of the HL this year is stronger IMO. |
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Post by gbanks on Jan 29, 2023 17:11:12 GMT -5
We should be more like 18-20. Top to bottom, we’re better than the Colonial, MAC and Big Sky. The HL has 2 teams in the bottom 5 of all of D1 basketball. You can't get much lower at the bottom. |
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Post by ede on Jan 29, 2023 20:42:56 GMT -5
We should be more like 18-20. Top to bottom, we’re better than the Colonial, MAC and Big Sky. The HL has 2 teams in the bottom 5 of all of D1 basketball. You can't get much lower at the bottom. only way out of this is start winning occ games and in post season |
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Post by vikesfan on Jan 30, 2023 13:54:26 GMT -5
Not HL related, but I feel like the state of Ohio is having a pretty strong year from the mid-majors in the MAC and HL. Particularly, northeast Ohio performing really well. Also including some of the big schools here as well:
Xavier - 27
OSU - 29
Kent - 60
Dayton - 67
Toledo - 103
YSU - 113
Akron - 118
OU - 140
CSU - 158
Wright State - 223
BGSU - 243
Miami - 325
In comparison, here is why Michigan teams are sitting:
MSU - 47
UM - 83
UDM - 237
Oakland - 255
WMU - 293
CMU - 312
EMU - 329
This makes up the bulk of the MAC and HL.
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Post by csuvikings2014 on Jan 30, 2023 16:34:59 GMT -5
Just think if CSU (and everyone else in the conference) wasn't forced to play IUPUI twice. CSU's NET went down after the win. They were at 141.
Thanks, IUPUI and Horizon League. Great addition there.
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Post by Admin on Jan 30, 2023 17:26:35 GMT -5
Adding in Cincinnati which vikesfan forgot.
Not HL related, but I feel like the state of Ohio is having a pretty strong year from the mid-majors in the MAC and HL. Particularly, northeast Ohio performing really well. Also including some of the big schools here as well:
Xavier - 27
OSU - 29
Kent - 60
Dayton - 67
Cincinnati - 78
Toledo - 103
YSU - 113
Akron - 118
OU - 140
CSU - 158
Wright State - 223
BGSU - 243
Miami - 325
In comparison, here is why Michigan teams are sitting:
MSU - 47
UM - 83
UDM - 237
Oakland - 255
WMU - 293
CMU - 312
EMU - 329
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Post by gbanks on Jan 30, 2023 18:33:35 GMT -5
Just think if CSU (and everyone else in the conference) wasn't forced to play IUPUI twice. CSU's NET went down after the win. They were at 141. Thanks, IUPUI and Horizon League. Great addition there. Good news, NET is more favorable to the HL than Massey. The NET includes more components than just winning percentage. It takes into account game results, strength of schedule, game location, scoring margin, net offensive and defensive efficiency, and the quality of wins and losses. It's both a results-driven and predictive metric.Remember scoring margin, at home, against a bad team = BAD. (Worse case: is losing big time against a bad team at home.) Net Ratings: (as of 1/29)115 Youngstown St. 141 Cleveland St. 161 Milwaukee 197 Purdue Fort Wayne 205 Northern Ky. 224 Wright St. 237 Detroit Mercy 249 Robert Morris 253 Oakland 361 IUPUI 360 Green Bay Massey Ratings: (for a comparison) 163 Youngstown St 191 Wright St 194 WI Milwaukee 198 Cleveland St 200 N Kentucky 208 PFW 243 Oakland 263 Robert Morris 268 Detroit 358 WI Green Bay 363 IUPUI |
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Post by ede on Jan 30, 2023 20:15:05 GMT -5
Just think if CSU (and everyone else in the conference) wasn't forced to play IUPUI twice. CSU's NET went down after the win. They were at 141. Thanks, IUPUI and Horizon League. Great addition there. the legacy of Lecrone continues 😒 |
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