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Post by stanley on Jan 22, 2022 19:13:29 GMT -5
Honestly, I think the HL would have to try to sabotage itself in order for this to not end up as an upgrade for the conference. MVC fans are delusional if they think adding UIC is going to be a good move. Loyola's ascent in the MVC was a "all the stars lining up" scenario that worked out perfectly for them. There is a better chance I hit the lotto tomorrow than that happening again with UIC. All the MVC did was remove one of the anchors to our conference and I thank them for it. We are a better conference next year if we do nothing and stick with 11 conference members just by eliminating them. Bellarmine is still in their transition to D1 and they are already a higher ranked NET team than UIC (212 vs 274) so adding them would be an upgrade. I'm not a fan of adding Morehead State because I have concerns about their long term finances but they would be an immediate upgrade to UIC too (103 to 274). I have concerns about Southern Indiana's finances too but I'll take their potential vs the shitshow UIC has been for the last 20 years any day of the week. The only way the HL doesn't come out better from losing UIC is if we do something completely asinine like add Chicago State and that would be self sabotage. The sabotage has already occurred with IUPUI and their NetRating of 358 out of 358. That move alone has enabled the Summit to rise higher than the HL in relative rankings. The only way the HL resolves UIPUI issue is to pay them to leave. If that continues over the next few years, the next best option is to dissolve the HL. Agreed. IUPUI is the anchor that must be cut free or the HL will always be towards/at the bottom of the NET rankings.
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Post by ede on Jan 23, 2022 12:32:16 GMT -5
Will UIC be able to duplicate Loyolas success in the MVC 🤔
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Post by gbanks on Jan 23, 2022 17:51:08 GMT -5
Will UIC be able to duplicate Loyolas success in the MVC 🤔 I see a squadron of pigs gathering on runway and preparing for take off.
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Post by ede on Jan 23, 2022 19:21:01 GMT -5
Will UIC be able to duplicate Loyolas success in the MVC 🤔 I see a squadron of pigs gathering on runway and preparing for take off. I agreed
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Post by stanley on Jan 23, 2022 22:20:25 GMT -5
Will UIC be able to duplicate Loyolas success in the MVC 🤔 Unlikely.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 25, 2022 10:49:25 GMT -5
All since we are now just waiting on the official word that UIC is moving to the MVC, I would like to reboot this thread (topic). Based on the responses on this board and others, there appears to be 3 options: - Stay with 11 teams - Add Bellarmine - Add Morehead St
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Post by ede on Jan 25, 2022 11:36:57 GMT -5
All since we are now just waiting on the official word that UIC is moving to the MVC, I would like to reboot this thread (topic). Based on the responses on this board and others, there appears to be 3 options: - Stay with 11 teams - Add Bellarmine - Add Morehead St I say invite both especially Moorehead
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Post by azvike83 on Jan 25, 2022 13:05:18 GMT -5
Add Bellarmine and Morehead St, then look for one more at some point.... (2 more if we can boot IUPUI...LOL)
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Post by ede on Jan 25, 2022 17:34:51 GMT -5
Add Bellarmine and Morehead St, then look for one more at some point.... (2 more if we can boot IUPUI...LOL) that's easy the way u boot IUPUI is to simply say. " need shovels on the ground,a new arena/practice facility with in 5 years. A more marketable name.(IUPUI🙄) they will leave on their own because they don't want to improve. Or spend the $$$.Adding them was a lazy move by the league office,local politics had a lot to do with it too I feel.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 25, 2022 18:43:21 GMT -5
Add Bellarmine and Morehead St, then look for one more at some point.... (2 more if we can boot IUPUI...LOL) that's easy the way u boot IUPUI is to simply say. " need shovels on the ground,a new arena/practice facility with in 5 years. A more marketable name.(IUPUI🙄) they will leave on their own because they don't want to improve. Or spend the $$$.Adding them was a lazy move by the league office,local politics had a lot to do with it too I feel. You know ede, I really don't care about the IUPUI's name or arena. It's the lack of winning. It's the lack of desire to win. I personally don't care if they play in a gym with pull out bleachers. To be the worst rated program in college basketball is gaping wound to the HL. Their lack of caring is hurting all the other programs in the HL. Which means the Vikes have to work even harder to make up the difference. This impacts tournament seedings, ability for HL teams to be invited to the NIT, and general recruiting.
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Post by ede on Jan 25, 2022 20:59:43 GMT -5
that's easy the way u boot IUPUI is to simply say. " need shovels on the ground,a new arena/practice facility with in 5 years. A more marketable name.(IUPUI🙄) they will leave on their own because they don't want to improve. Or spend the $$$.Adding them was a lazy move by the league office,local politics had a lot to do with it too I feel. You know ede, I really don't care about the IUPUI's name or arena. It's the lack of winning. It's the lack of desire to win. I personally don't care if they play in a gym with pull out bleachers. To be the worst rated program in college basketball is gaping wound to the HL. Their lack of caring is hurting all the other programs in the HL. Which means the Vikes have to work even harder to make up the difference. This impacts tournament seedings, ability for HL teams to be invited to the NIT, and general recruiting. I know that's what meant by "shovels on the ground,they need to "care" they don't which is why they're the lowest rated.
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Post by ede on Jan 25, 2022 21:01:01 GMT -5
Btw Southern Indiana just joined the OVC
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Post by ede on Jan 26, 2022 2:12:55 GMT -5
Btw Southern Indiana just joined the OVC Because the HL turned them down, FYI recently?
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Post by gbanks on Jan 26, 2022 12:54:50 GMT -5
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Post by ede on Jan 26, 2022 17:10:43 GMT -5
Now how will the HL react to this? Time for the new commish to prove herself.
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Post by ede on Jan 26, 2022 21:17:08 GMT -5
What I hear is that the HL told Southern Indiana that they need to be further along their path to becoming D1 before the HL would consider them and they were encouraged to join the OVC. I think they want them to be in their transition period already and show that they are going to be able to increase their athletic budget enough to be competitive in the HL. Basically, they were told to follow the path NKU took in their bid to join the HL.  It might very well be the same path Bellarmine uses to get into the HL. (start their transition to D1, join the ASUN, have a few decent years, then get invited to the HL).  Well that's not an unreasonable demand. From the HL but USI has been contemplating this move for years. I'd take a leap of faith with USI and Bellermine. Add either of them and/or Moorehead.
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Post by stanley on Jan 27, 2022 14:42:29 GMT -5
USI goes against what the Horizon League claims to be about - mid-major schools in large metro areas.
Bellarmine fits.
Personally, none of these schools being rumored to join the HL excite me. This has become a conference of Summit League also-rans and teams that (relatively) recently moved from D2 to D1.
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Post by stanley on Jan 27, 2022 14:52:18 GMT -5
Here's what I would do if I were CSU: Get on the phone with UDM, Oakland, Wright State, NKU, UWM, UWGB and Bellarmine and form an 8-team conference. In the meantime, reach out to several of the MAC schools that are losing their butts on football and see if one or two of them would like to do the prudent thing and drop it and join a basketball-centric conference that fits geographically.
Leave YSU, RMU, IPFW, IUPUI in the HL and they can add USI and a bunch of schools in the middle of nowhere that can't beat anyone of significance in the non-conference season that all have low NET ratings. That's all they've done for the past 10+ years anyway.
The HL continues on its downward path in the rankings and the other schools get out and have a chance to move forward. Everyone wins!
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Post by gbanks on Jan 27, 2022 17:30:54 GMT -5
There's rumblings on the Detroit board regarding the MAAC. Since the MAAC is now down a member (Monmouth and joining the CAA), Detroit's fanbase looking at the MAAC as an opportunity. Their travel costs would increase; but, they figure their school profile is closer to the MAAC profile than to the HL.
Another issue is in forming a new league is the duration it takes to get an auto bid. CSU's AMCU bid was an "at large". The AMCU did not qualify for an auto bid at the time of our "At large". Who says the Vikes never earned an At large invite. Of course the NCAA is about to mutate, so it's hard to tell what the rules will be next year.
The 3rd factor is that some schools like WSU want baseball. CSU only participates in 5 men's sports. We participate in 3 men's sports outside of the HL. Therefore I'm not sure how many sports the new conference with sponsor.
Your proposal does provide a very tight foot print and overall higher quality conference.
Maybe we can be like English football leagues; were a team can get promoted (or demoted) to the higher league based on performance.
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Post by ede on Jan 27, 2022 21:15:27 GMT -5
Here's what I would do if I were CSU: Get on the phone with UDM, Oakland, Wright State, NKU, UWM, UWGB and Bellarmine and form an 8-team conference. In the meantime, reach out to several of the MAC schools that are losing their butts on football and see if one or two of them would like to do the prudent thing and drop it and join a basketball-centric conference that fits geographically. Leave YSU, RMU, IPFW, IUPUI in the HL and they can add USI and a bunch of schools in the middle of nowhere that can't beat anyone of significance in the non-conference season that all have low NET ratings. That's all they've done for the past 10+ years anyway. The HL continues on its downward path in the rankings and the other schools get out and have a chance to move forward. Everyone wins! RMU is not a bad program they just having a bad stretch neither is Fort Wayne. RMU will get it together. But I agree. The old WAC did this years ago to form the mountain west. I can be done.
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Post by stanley on Jan 27, 2022 21:51:16 GMT -5
Your proposal does provide a very tight foot print and overall higher quality conference. Maybe we can be like English football leagues; were a team can get promoted (or demoted) to the higher league based on performance. That's the idea - tighter footprint and more competitive - and this accomplishes two things: 1. You get rid of the dead weight and 2. You get rid of the mediocre league office that sees everything through the lens of Indianapolis. I like your promote/demote idea - lol.
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Post by stanley on Jan 27, 2022 22:00:29 GMT -5
Here's what I would do if I were CSU: Get on the phone with UDM, Oakland, Wright State, NKU, UWM, UWGB and Bellarmine and form an 8-team conference. In the meantime, reach out to several of the MAC schools that are losing their butts on football and see if one or two of them would like to do the prudent thing and drop it and join a basketball-centric conference that fits geographically. I know most of the ADs in the HL from doing business with them over the years. I can tell you for a fact that none of them would be interested in your idea. Schools don't spend/walk away from millions of dollars to join a new conference that isn't an upgrade for them. An upgrade is joining a conference that gets multiple bids to the NCAAs and or has a better TV deal. The teams you want to include would not achieve either of those criteria. Personally, I wouldn't want 1/2 the teams you listed in a new conference. No conference would be perfect and each school I mentioned has had at least relatively recent success. I understand I'm simplifying a complex process. This is a message board, afterall. But where the HL is taking this conference hasn't been good. Their Indy-centric lens they see everything through does nothing for any team not named IUPUI. To have a conference give the program that cares the least about it's flagship sport their flagship Tournament simply because it's easy and covenient for the league office is lazy and incompetent. I see no signs of the league thinking creatively, intelligently and in an equitable manner for all of their members any time soon. So you can either leave the conference like Butler, Valpo, Loyola, and UIC have done recently, find common ground with most of your other conference partners and form your own conference (it's happened before) or stay with the current conference that is a huge hurdle to improving your program because of the problems that have been stated. I find it hard to fathom most of the schools in the HL are content with the way things have been going.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 27, 2022 23:06:12 GMT -5
Here's what I would do if I were CSU: Get on the phone with UDM, Oakland, Wright State, NKU, UWM, UWGB and Bellarmine and form an 8-team conference. In the meantime, reach out to several of the MAC schools that are losing their butts on football and see if one or two of them would like to do the prudent thing and drop it and join a basketball-centric conference that fits geographically. I know most of the ADs in the HL from doing business with them over the years. I can tell you for a fact that none of them would be interested in your idea. Schools don't spend/walk away from millions of dollars to join a new conference that isn't an upgrade for them. An upgrade is joining a conference that gets multiple bids to the NCAAs and or has a better TV deal. The teams you want to include would not achieve either of those criteria. Personally, I wouldn't want 1/2 the teams you listed in a new conference. Care to elaborate which 50% you don't want in your conference? If they happen to be s customer, let's hope they don't read this board.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 27, 2022 23:13:40 GMT -5
Your proposal does provide a very tight foot print and overall higher quality conference. Maybe we can be like English football leagues; were a team can get promoted (or demoted) to the higher league based on performance. That's the idea - tighter footprint and more competitive - and this accomplishes two things: 1. You get rid of the dead weight and 2. You get rid of the mediocre league office that sees everything through the lens of Indianapolis. I like your promote/demote idea - lol. Yeah... It's best not to be to serious about this stuff. After all it's just a game. I am a fan of the team and it's fun to have conversations and sometimes wildly speculate about possibilities. The HL did paint itself into a corner. Hopefully in the future some new president at that school in Indy will decide to turn it around.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 28, 2022 8:40:29 GMT -5
Care to elaborate which 50% you don't want in your conference? If they happen to be s customer, let's hope they don't read this board. Wright State wouldn’t be interested in your proposed conference because quite a few of the schools you listed don’t sponsor baseball. That is a deal breaker for us. For discussion sake, if we were only considering basketball I’d eliminate Milwaukee because they are the type of school hurting the HL right now. They have resources and the chose not to use them and have let their once elite program go to shit. Once you eliminate them, you also have to eliminate Green Bay because they make no sense in a conference without a travel partner. I wouldn’t invite Detroit because they suck. They don’t have resources and the way they have been scheduling has only hurts the HL. Hmmm, I guess that eliminates us too. I understand CSU cut baseball b/c of travel costs. It was said that the team was on the road in the south most of the first part of the season. Cleveland is quite cold during early spring. Also the home games were not near the campus. Unless there is compelling reasons to change, I don't see a Vike baseball team in the near future. When CSU did add a sport, it was LAX. Which was a great add. Anyway.... it was a hypothetical and it's good to get some out of the box ideas on these forums. I was introduced to the "Blue Ocean Strategy" over a decade ago. It's a good read and many companies have leveraged it. The HL in general needs to re-evaluate itself. The HL is losing at trying to emulate everyone else. You never know when a different approach become the best approach.
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Post by ede on Jan 28, 2022 12:01:24 GMT -5
The HL brass aren't very creative "thinking out of the box" type people, not Lecrone nor his replacement. I came up with the same idea of creating a new conference. Mid majors who invest in their programs. Basically cutting out the dead weight IUPUI,YSU. Getting away from a conference that thinks everything is about Indianapolis. The teams mentioned I have no mentioned I have no issues with. Fuk baseball this is about Basketball. A sport with more potential to make $$$$$ and help the school. Wright State or whomever want Baseball so bad they can play it at another conference while playing hoops in the new conference;it's been done before.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 28, 2022 15:39:15 GMT -5
BigD, When we all moved to the MCC back in the 90's, did the various athletic departments stop to make sure that our destination conference had the rules in place you are talking about? That would have been the time. Once a team is accepted into the conference, it is very hard to get teams to commit to types of restrictions they don't like. This ship has sailed.
Budget considerations: Didn't UIC have a relatively larger budget than most HL departments? Loyola had very little incentive to invest more into a conference that the other members did not have too. This could be the same with that Indy team. All teams should come into the league on probation and a clause that allows the conference to remove teams that don't conform. This ship has sailed.
Scheduling considerations: I do not disagree what you are saying. I personally hate D3 and D3 games. Scheduling games against week P5 teams is not always easy. They don't want to loose to a mid major. Let alone pay the mid major to beat them. So those restrictions on the "pay day" games can be a little tough. To me, these type of games are high impact / low risk games. If you win (past Vike wins at Vanderbilt and Syracuse), these victories become statement games. It's a plus for your brand. If you loose, no one expected you to win and is neutral to the brand. The types of games the Vikes should avoid are the "beat down" games. I never seen the point of being taken to the shed, just to have your team humiliated for a few dollars. You brand takes a hit, your team's morale may not recover, your ratings are negatively impacted, and your recruits remember your performance.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 28, 2022 17:39:23 GMT -5
BigD, When we all moved to the MCC back in the 90's, did the various athletic departments stop to make sure that our destination conference had the rules in place you are talking about? That would have been the time. Once a team is accepted into the conference, it is very hard to get teams to commit to types of restrictions they don't like. This ship has sailed. Budget considerations: Didn't UIC have a relatively larger budget than most HL departments? Loyola had very little incentive to invest more into a conference that the other members did not have too. This could be the same with that Indy team. All teams should come into the league on probation and a clause that allows the conference to remove teams that don't conform. This ship has sailed. Scheduling considerations: I do not disagree what you are saying. I personally hate D3 and D3 games. Scheduling games against week P5 teams is not always easy. They don't want to loose to a mid major. Let alone pay the mid major to beat them. So those restrictions on the "pay day" games can be a little tough. To me, these type of games are high impact / low risk games. If you win (past Vike wins at Vanderbilt and Syracuse), these victories become statement games. It's a plus for your brand. If you loose, no one expected you to win and is neutral to the brand. The types of games the Vikes should avoid are the "beat down" games. I never seen the point of being taken to the shed, just to have your team humiliated for a few dollars. You brand takes a hit, your team's morale may not recover, your ratings are negatively impacted, and your recruits remember your performance. Well, you have followed the HL way to long if you think a conference cannot add/change rules any damn time they want, not just when a team joins. The A-10 for example made a scheduling mandate for OOC games about 8-9 years ago where each team's OOC SOS average over a 3 year period had to hit a certain number or that school didn't get their share of their conference's NCAA tournament money or TV contract money. Enough schools in that conference care about success that they passed that legislation. That will never happen in the HL because most schools don't care. Hell, the time when the A-10 were coming up with their rules, LeCrone was encouraging HL teams to schedule more D2 teams if you remember that era. In regards to buy games, you are way the hell off on their impact too. RPI and now NET has a percentage of it's calculation based on winning percentage. For the NET, team value index, net efficiency, winning percentage, adjusted win percentage and scoring margin make up the equation. If you play D2 games, they don't count at all. If you schedule all your OOC games as buy games vs ACC teams and go 1-9, it sure in the hell affects your NET especially if you get your ass handed to you which is what usually happens when we play those games. If you hurt your NET by playing too many of those games, you are also hurting the rest of the conference too because everyone has to play each other twice a year. I agree that every HL team should play some buy games on the road to try to toughen up their team and have a chance to add a resume type win for their program, but too many of them only hurts the conference. I don't remember their exact rule but the A-10 has a max of something like 2 buy games on the road permitted per year. I get both of your points. Herding cats is not easy. Better to get agreement up front when you have a common goal (moving to the MCC) instead of waiting later for each school's interest to evolve and they are all looking for their next move (getting out the HL). The HL is NOT the A10 and never was. I think you rate the that period of the HL way too high. The legacy MCC teams looked at us as Riff Raff and left ASAP. Kind of like Rodney Dangerfield in Caddy Shack. I get net rating calculation. Again you are acting like HL teams are good. Great teams don't need to take risks. Good teams don't need to take bad risks. Mediocre teams have to take some risks (this is the top layer of the HL). Bad teams have to take more risks (most of HL). Really Bad teams show up every game and it's a beat down avoidance for them (their opponents assumes all the risk b/c they might loose). That my friend is the our bottom third of our HL teams. Our problem is not so much that we get beat by good teams. The problem is we have bad teams. You are playing defense and trying to minimize an already bad situation. You see, you are not in the acceptance phase yet.
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Post by ede on Jan 28, 2022 20:30:01 GMT -5
I know most of the ADs in the HL from doing business with them over the years. I can tell you for a fact that none of them would be interested in your idea. Schools don't spend/walk away from millions of dollars to join a new conference that isn't an upgrade for them. An upgrade is joining a conference that gets multiple bids to the NCAAs and or has a better TV deal. The teams you want to include would not achieve either of those criteria. Personally, I wouldn't want 1/2 the teams you listed in a new conference. No conference would be perfect and each school I mentioned has had at least relatively recent success. I understand I'm simplifying a complex process.  This is a message board, afterall.  But where the HL is taking this conference hasn't been good.  Their Indy-centric lens they see everything through does nothing for any team not named IUPUI.  To have a conference give the program that cares the least about it's flagship sport their flagship Tournament simply because it's easy and covenient for the league office is lazy and incompetent.  I see no signs of the league thinking creatively, intelligently and in an equitable manner for all of their members any time soon.  So you can either leave the conference like Butler, Valpo, Loyola, and UIC have done recently, find common ground with most of your other conference partners and form your own conference (it's happened before) or stay with the current conference that is a huge hurdle to improving your program because of the problems that have been stated. I find it hard to fathom most of the schools in the HL are content with the way things have been going. forming a new conference has happened before and it's not impossible or un reasonable to do. The old Metro became the great midwest. Then conference usa. Teams defected from the old WAC and became The mountain west.
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Post by gbanks on Feb 1, 2022 12:43:45 GMT -5
I saw this on the HL Fan Board posted by a Valpo guy (the video is not done by him). In the 2nd half of the video is a presentation of HL candidates. I would bypass the 1st half about UIC getting the boot from the HL b/c they are a really bad team (did I say that out loud, my bad, could not help that). HL Candidate / Bye Bye UIC
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