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Post by ede on Jan 6, 2022 20:09:33 GMT -5
This can easily fit into the "State of the HL" thread but I felt it deserves a thread of it's own. If we lose UIC and theirs a good chance we will. What program would be an adequate replacement. I like Wayne State(if Detroit and Oakland allow it) Southern Indiana Morehead. Bellermine. Maybe see if their anything worth Shopping for in what left of the OVC. Other than Morehead. Wayne State has the most potential. Chicago State although playing better is out if the question.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Jan 6, 2022 21:30:13 GMT -5
I just looked at geography and see what gaps the HL would have and what other regional conferences have outliers that may fit in better in our footprint. There honestly isn’t an obvious fit.
If UIC leaves, the Horizon would be without a school in Illinois. You could look at Eastern Illinois from the OVC or Western Illinois from the Summit. Both have been pretty garbage and both have football.
The MAAC has two teams in/near the city of Buffalo in Canisius and Niagara that are somewhat removed from the rest of the east coast-based conference. It would be nice to add the city of Buffalo to the other midwestern cities in the HL but both schools are private (along with the rest of the MAAC) and Buffalo to the east coast is much closer than Buffalo to Green Bay. I highly doubt either would want to make that move.
Saint Francis (PA) is the western-most school remaining in the Northeast after RMU left and they’re only 2 hours from RMU. Although they’re a private catholic school in the middle of nowhere and they field football.
Morehead State might be the most natural fit. It would add another Kentucky school that’s less than 2 hours from NKU and one that has had some success as a program. They do field football but in the Pioneer League. Although, the school’s financial standing has been mentioned here as being less than stellar.
All of that said, my money is on UMKC because they are in a city, they have a lot of initials in their name, and they suck. Seems like the typical HL move.
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Post by ede on Jan 6, 2022 22:04:08 GMT -5
I just looked at geography and see what gaps the HL would have and what other regional conferences have outliers that may fit in better in our footprint. There honestly isn’t an obvious fit. If UIC leaves, the Horizon would be without a school in Illinois. You could look at Eastern Illinois from the OVC or Western Illinois from the Summit. Both have been pretty garbage and both have football. The MAAC has two teams in/near the city of Buffalo in Canisius and Niagara that are somewhat removed from the rest of the east coast-based conference. It would be nice to add the city of Buffalo to the other midwestern cities in the HL but both schools are private (along with the rest of the MAAC) and Buffalo to the east coast is much closer than Buffalo to Green Bay. I highly doubt either would want to make that move. Saint Francis (PA) is the western-most school remaining in the Northeast after RMU left and they’re only 2 hours from RMU. Although they’re a private catholic school in the middle of nowhere and they field football. Morehead State might be the most natural fit. It would add another Kentucky school that’s less than 2 hours from NKU and one that has had some success as a program. They do field football but in the Pioneer League. Although, the school’s financial standing has been mentioned here as being less than stellar. All of that said, my money is on UMKC because they are in a city, they have a lot of initials in their name, and they suck. Seems like the typical HL move. lol 😂😂😂😂😂
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Post by ede on Jan 6, 2022 22:06:50 GMT -5
I just looked at geography and see what gaps the HL would have and what other regional conferences have outliers that may fit in better in our footprint. There honestly isn’t an obvious fit. If UIC leaves, the Horizon would be without a school in Illinois. You could look at Eastern Illinois from the OVC or Western Illinois from the Summit. Both have been pretty garbage and both have football. The MAAC has two teams in/near the city of Buffalo in Canisius and Niagara that are somewhat removed from the rest of the east coast-based conference. It would be nice to add the city of Buffalo to the other midwestern cities in the HL but both schools are private (along with the rest of the MAAC) and Buffalo to the east coast is much closer than Buffalo to Green Bay. I highly doubt either would want to make that move. Saint Francis (PA) is the western-most school remaining in the Northeast after RMU left and they’re only 2 hours from RMU. Although they’re a private catholic school in the middle of nowhere and they field football. Morehead State might be the most natural fit. It would add another Kentucky school that’s less than 2 hours from NKU and one that has had some success as a program. They do field football but in the Pioneer League. Although, the school’s financial standing has been mentioned here as being less than stellar. All of that said, my money is on UMKC because they are in a city, they have a lot of initials in their name, and they suck. Seems like the typical HL move. You really need to think about travel and more importantly travel partners when you think about our next addition. There isn't a chance in hell the HL is adding a team from Buffalo. Who would you pair with them as a travel partner. The 2 schools that are probably going to be looked at by the HL are Bellarmine and Southern Indiana. Bellarmine makes the most sense right now. They already started their transition to D1. They already have history with a couple of HL schools from their D2 days (NKU and WSU). They are located in a major metro area which the HL tends to like. They also fit the HL really well geographically. We are losing UIC which takes away IUPUI's travel partner. If we add Bellarmine you pair them with NKU and you pair IUPUI with WSU as the new travel partners. Bellarmine to NKU is a 1:27 minute drive. IUPUI to WSU is a 1:43 minute drive. makes sense. But us your issue with Wayne State. Oakland and Detroit locking them maybe?
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Post by gbanks on Jan 6, 2022 22:10:23 GMT -5
Hmmm, let's see. KenProm scores below. Man this is hard. So many choices.
283 Illinois Chicago <-- Bye bye
151 Cleveland St. - The Good Guys 187 Wright St. - I threw this in for BigD
220 Bellarmine - everyone's darling b/c they fit right in the middle of the HL pack 143 Morehead St. - No $, I don't care that actually may be interested in joining the HL. This moves the needle in the wrong direction. This isn't golf, the higher # wins! 206 Western Illinois - Ahh, memories of the AMCU-8 352 Eastern Illinois - we already have IUPUI (this choice might be hard to resist)
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Post by ede on Jan 6, 2022 22:47:04 GMT -5
Hmmm, let's see. KenProm scores below. Man this is hard. So many choices. 283 Illinois Chicago <-- Bye bye 151 Cleveland St. - The Good Guys 187 Wright St. - I threw this in for BigD 220 Bellarmine - everyone's darling b/c they fit right in the middle of the HL pack 143 Morehead St. - No $, I don't care that actually may be interested in joining the HL. This moves the needle in the wrong direction. This isn't golf, the higher # wins! 206 Western Illinois - Ahh, memories of the AMCU-8 352 Eastern Illinois - we already have IUPUI (this choice might be hard to resist) Wayne State 400 million endowment if interested. Only problem Oakland,Detroit
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Post by ede on Jan 7, 2022 1:20:53 GMT -5
Hear what ur saying but ppl said the SAMETHING about NKU. I'd vote for WSU based on their potential. Just like Southern Indiana. I think ur being a little unfair to Wayne State. But at the same time I see your point. Whose to say Wayne State can't be the next NKU with the right coach and administration behind them.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 7, 2022 8:47:48 GMT -5
Hmmm, let's see. KenProm scores below. Man this is hard. So many choices. 283 Illinois Chicago <-- Bye bye 151 Cleveland St. - The Good Guys 187 Wright St. - I threw this in for BigD 220 Bellarmine - everyone's darling b/c they fit right in the middle of the HL pack 143 Morehead St. - No $, I don't care that actually may be interested in joining the HL. This moves the needle in the wrong direction. This isn't golf, the higher # wins! 206 Western Illinois - Ahh, memories of the AMCU-8 352 Eastern Illinois - we already have IUPUI (this choice might be hard to resist) Wayne State 400 million endowment if interested. Only problem Oakland,Detroit I did not list any D2 schools. There is no track record to measure. Frankly the only program I would consider is Morehead St. I understand from Big D, their finances are not the best. He also indicated that Wright and Ft Wayne also have financial problems; thus, both programs are currently devastating the league. So we should not consider programs with financial challenges. Apparently schools with a lot of money and in the HL are big problems. If you have the money and in the lowly HL, then there is rampant mis management taking place. I don't know who would be left standing (amongst the current HL schools) if we considered this criteria today. Having said that, any new add to the HL will not put additional butts in seats at the Wolstein. Thus staying pat (at 11) until everyone is gone sounds like the best plan.
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Post by azvike83 on Jan 7, 2022 9:35:38 GMT -5
I think the HL is also slowing pushing for Lacrosse as their alternative to football. Much lower startup costs. look how far CSU has come with their program. Detroit and Bobby Morris have lacrosse now also...just another reason why I think Bellarmine will come aboard, as they have a strong LAX program. Don't be surprised if others schools start adding it as well...
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Post by gbanks on Jan 7, 2022 10:17:50 GMT -5
I think the HL is also slowing pushing for Lacrosse as their alternative to football. Much lower startup costs. look how far CSU has come with their program. Detroit and Bobby Morris have lacrosse now also...just another reason why I think Bellarmine will come aboard, as they have a strong LAX program. Don't be surprised if others schools start adding it as well... LAX was a good pickup by CSU. No new facilities needed (can use existing soccer field and seasons do not overlap). I also think the HL teams and Bellarmine are all in the ASUN for LAX. As other HL programs bring in LAX we should consider moving those teams to the HL. I also think this is most likely 5 years out. As for now (since the HL is basketball conference), Bellarmine should be considered if we are looking at a 13 and 14th team expansion. I suggest reaching out the strongest program available (which I still think is Morehead), while we have a chance. Every program the HL considers is going to have warts. If the HL does not go with the best available, they will be kicking themselves again for making a head scratching decision again.
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Post by ede on Jan 7, 2022 16:43:17 GMT -5
Hear what ur saying but ppl said the SAMETHING about NKU. I'd vote for WSU based on their potential. Just like Southern Indiana. I think ur being a little unfair to Wayne State. But at the same time I see your point. Whose to say Wayne State can't be the next NKU with the right coach and administration behind them. No one said the same thing about NKU. NKU had an absolute ton of D2 success before they were invited to the HL and many including myself were still skeptical. Wayne State has no prior D2 success to hang their hat on. They have money and they have shown no inclination that they are willing to spend it on athletics. I don't know why you have a hard on for Wayne State but they have absolutely no chance of getting invited to the HL. inwas merely looking a potential members I just like WSU due potential i.e. Loyola. They were awful in the HL, like Loyola they have huge endowment. And are finally living up to their potential because they have the right ppl and coach in place. And their were a lot off ppl skeptical about NKU until they proved themselves and then some. I understand they may not get an invitation, just throwing out potential candidates. Remember Loyola got the MVC invited based on potential. The rest is history. They (Loyola) held their own with a good Michigan State team.
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Post by stanley on Jan 8, 2022 0:36:11 GMT -5
Since everyone here seems to be doing a little reaching, here's another one - a MAC team or two could easily drop football. Football has been keeping most of the MAC schools' athletic departments in the red. And with the way the Power 5's have college football set up, there's no chance of a MAC football cinderella (At least in basketball, there's a chance - Butler, Loyola, George Mason, etc...). If a MAC school or two drops football, they would fit better into the HL and actually be inside the footprint. Bellarmine, Southern Indiana, Eastern Illinois, Western Illinos, Morehead State - none of those are actually inside the footprint. And honestly, none of those are attractive to me.
Well, they're all better than IUPUI, but then EVERY Division 1 program is better than IUPUI.
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Post by ede on Jan 8, 2022 1:17:10 GMT -5
Since everyone here seems to be doing a little reaching, here's another one - a MAC team or two could easily drop football. Football has been keeping most of the MAC schools' athletic departments in the red. And with the way the Power 5's have college football set up, there's no chance of a MAC football cinderella (At least in basketball, there's a chance - Butler, Loyola, George Mason, etc...). If a MAC school or two drops football, they would fit better into the HL and actually be inside the footprint. Bellarmine, Southern Indiana, Eastern Illinois, Western Illinos, Morehead State - none of those are actually inside the footprint. And honestly, none of those are attractive to me. Well, they're all better than IUPUI, but then EVERY Division 1 program is better than IUPUI. Screw the footprint, get a team that will make the league better with upside. Morehead, Southern Indiana and Bellermine make it better. Wayne has Loyola like potential.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 8, 2022 8:43:42 GMT -5
Since everyone here seems to be doing a little reaching, here's another one - a MAC team or two could easily drop football. Football has been keeping most of the MAC schools' athletic departments in the red. And with the way the Power 5's have college football set up, there's no chance of a MAC football cinderella (At least in basketball, there's a chance - Butler, Loyola, George Mason, etc...). If a MAC school or two drops football, they would fit better into the HL and actually be inside the footprint. Bellarmine, Southern Indiana, Eastern Illinois, Western Illinos, Morehead State - none of those are actually inside the footprint. And honestly, none of those are attractive to me. Well, they're all better than IUPUI, but then EVERY Division 1 program is better than IUPUI. I'm not opposed to the idea. Over the last decade, the MAC has been better at basketball than the HL. Do you think that these schools would be forced to leave the MAC if they drop football? As far as the footprint, from a state perspective, all of the schools mentioned are in the foot print. They just move the concentration a little more south. From an expansion point view, that is the only direction that the HL can move. The MVC is to our west and the A10 is to our east. Of course we do overlap with the MAC. However, I get your point. Some of these schools do not have close airports or interstates. But when you think about it Green Bay is now basically fly to school for some of the HL teams. There is also an oversaturation consideration. One of the primary reasons that YSU was never considered by the MAC is b/c OH is already heavily represented. The concern was recruitment over competition. Maybe we can trade UIPIU for Ball State!
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Post by theonetheonly on Jan 8, 2022 15:29:27 GMT -5
Screw the footprint, get a team that will make the league better with upside. Morehead, Southern Indiana and Bellermine make it better. Wayne has Loyola like potential. I don't know if any of these teams make the HL better. Morehead the last couple of years is definitely an upgrade over UIC the last few years. Long term, I don't know if they have the finances in place to compete in the HL. Counting their football budget, their athletic department spends less on sports than any other HL team. Bellarmine is still an unproven team but I like their commitment to athletics and they do have the finances to compete in the HL. Southern Indiana hasn't even decided if they are going D1. They did a presentation a few months ago about the potential jump but they also said they needed to DOUBLE their current athletic department spending to do so. They mentioned increasing student fees to make that happen. That is an issue that needs to be worked out but I still like their potential. Wayne State isn't going to be invited, so I'm not wasting more time on them. In regards to the MAC, I just don't see any of their programs wanting to come to the HL even if they have to drop their football program and get booted from the MAC. We The HL would be fools to at least not make an attempt but I don't see it happening. There is zero chance a program from the MAC is joining the Horzion League.
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Post by ede on Jan 8, 2022 16:30:41 GMT -5
I don't know if any of these teams make the HL better. Morehead the last couple of years is definitely an upgrade over UIC the last few years. Long term, I don't know if they have the finances in place to compete in the HL. Counting their football budget, their athletic department spends less on sports than any other HL team. Bellarmine is still an unproven team but I like their commitment to athletics and they do have the finances to compete in the HL. Southern Indiana hasn't even decided if they are going D1. They did a presentation a few months ago about the potential jump but they also said they needed to DOUBLE their current athletic department spending to do so. They mentioned increasing student fees to make that happen. That is an issue that needs to be worked out but I still like their potential. Wayne State isn't going to be invited, so I'm not wasting more time on them. In regards to the MAC, I just don't see any of their programs wanting to come to the HL even if they have to drop their football program and get booted from the MAC. We The HL would be fools to at least not make an attempt but I don't see it happening. There is zero chance a program from the MAC is joining the Horzion League. less likely there is no such thing as zero chance. None of the MAC schools is making money off of football.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 8, 2022 16:37:06 GMT -5
Frankly, we don't know if any program is seeking to join the HL. The last 3 programs we brought in was on the radar for years. Looking at this from their point of view, I'm guessing that of the schools being tossed in this dialog only 2 would be interested that the HL would consider. - Western Illinois (I believe Jeter is there now), would likely want to leave the Summit for the HL. I list Western Illinois in the would like to join the HL camp.
- The ASUN is currently rated higher than the HL and I would argue there is no travel saving for Bellarmine by moving to the HL. I see Bellamine as a not likely interested in joining the HL at this time. I think they are going to have a wait and see approach.
- Morehead would consider an HL invite. A move to the HL would increase their travel costs (something that I'm sure would weigh heavy on their considerations). Their Pioneer League football program would have to be scrapped to help fund their HL conversion. However, staying in a really bad OVC will be tough medicine. Because this would be tough choice for Morehead, List them as a maybe.
- Eastern Ill (which I doubt the HL would consider) would say yes.
This may play out that the HL does not replace UIC right away. This will allow some of our new programs to recalibrate to the HL.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 8, 2022 16:56:40 GMT -5
Screw the footprint, get a team that will make the league better with upside. Morehead, Southern Indiana and Bellermine make it better. Wayne has Loyola like potential. I don't know if any of these teams make the HL better. Morehead the last couple of years is definitely an upgrade over UIC the last few years. Long term, I don't know if they have the finances in place to compete in the HL. Counting their football budget, their athletic department spends less on sports than any other HL team. Bellarmine is still an unproven team but I like their commitment to athletics and they do have the finances to compete in the HL. Southern Indiana hasn't even decided if they are going D1. They did a presentation a few months ago about the potential jump but they also said they needed to DOUBLE their current athletic department spending to do so. They mentioned increasing student fees to make that happen. That is an issue that needs to be worked out but I still like their potential. Wayne State isn't going to be invited, so I'm not wasting more time on them. In regards to the MAC, I just don't see any of their programs wanting to come to the HL even if they have to drop their football program and get booted from the MAC. We The HL would be fools to at least not make an attempt but I don't see it happening. BigD, just out of curiosity. Is Morehead State's financial situation worse than WSU? Honest question b/c I really don't know. I did a quick look and all I could really see is a situation regarding $10 Mil loans coming due on the horizon. I'm sure there are other considerations and negative impacts I have yet to uncover. The enrollment appears to be about the same as Green Bay. The next part of the question is the sustainability comment you made. I'm trying to figure out if you are indirectly saying the Wright State is in danger of not being able to field a strong program in the near future.
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Post by ede on Jan 8, 2022 17:41:47 GMT -5
I don't know if any of these teams make the HL better. Morehead the last couple of years is definitely an upgrade over UIC the last few years. Long term, I don't know if they have the finances in place to compete in the HL. Counting their football budget, their athletic department spends less on sports than any other HL team. Bellarmine is still an unproven team but I like their commitment to athletics and they do have the finances to compete in the HL. Southern Indiana hasn't even decided if they are going D1. They did a presentation a few months ago about the potential jump but they also said they needed to DOUBLE their current athletic department spending to do so. They mentioned increasing student fees to make that happen. That is an issue that needs to be worked out but I still like their potential. Wayne State isn't going to be invited, so I'm not wasting more time on them. In regards to the MAC, I just don't see any of their programs wanting to come to the HL even if they have to drop their football program and get booted from the MAC. We The HL would be fools to at least not make an attempt but I don't see it happening. BigD, just out of curiosity. Is Morehead State's financial situation worse than WSU? Honest question b/c I really don't know. I did a quick look and all I could really see is a situation regarding $10 Mil loans coming due on the horizon. I'm sure there are other considerations and negative impacts I have yet to uncover. The enrollment appears to be about the same as Green Bay. The next part of the question is the sustainability comment you made. I'm trying to figure out if you are indirectly saying the Wright State is in danger of not being able to field a strong program in the near future. I know read online a while back certain individuals at the school took. Issue with Nagys salary. But iam sure Big D knows more about that.
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Post by stanley on Jan 8, 2022 20:58:06 GMT -5
Since everyone here seems to be doing a little reaching, here's another one - a MAC team or two could easily drop football. Football has been keeping most of the MAC schools' athletic departments in the red. And with the way the Power 5's have college football set up, there's no chance of a MAC football cinderella (At least in basketball, there's a chance - Butler, Loyola, George Mason, etc...). If a MAC school or two drops football, they would fit better into the HL and actually be inside the footprint. Bellarmine, Southern Indiana, Eastern Illinois, Western Illinos, Morehead State - none of those are actually inside the footprint. And honestly, none of those are attractive to me. Well, they're all better than IUPUI, but then EVERY Division 1 program is better than IUPUI. Screw the footprint, get a team that will make the league better with upside. Morehead, Southern Indiana and Bellermine make it better. Wayne has Loyola like potential. I disagree, none of those schools, right now, make the Horizon League better. And this Wayne State thing? They have as much of a chance as becoming like Loyola as IUPUI does.
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Post by stanley on Jan 8, 2022 21:01:42 GMT -5
I don't know if any of these teams make the HL better. Morehead the last couple of years is definitely an upgrade over UIC the last few years. Long term, I don't know if they have the finances in place to compete in the HL. Counting their football budget, their athletic department spends less on sports than any other HL team. Bellarmine is still an unproven team but I like their commitment to athletics and they do have the finances to compete in the HL. Southern Indiana hasn't even decided if they are going D1. They did a presentation a few months ago about the potential jump but they also said they needed to DOUBLE their current athletic department spending to do so. They mentioned increasing student fees to make that happen. That is an issue that needs to be worked out but I still like their potential. Wayne State isn't going to be invited, so I'm not wasting more time on them. In regards to the MAC, I just don't see any of their programs wanting to come to the HL even if they have to drop their football program and get booted from the MAC. We The HL would be fools to at least not make an attempt but I don't see it happening. There is zero chance a program from the MAC is joining the Horzion League. In 2016, Eastern Michigan commissioned a study that suggested dropping football and doing exactly that - joining the Horizon League. I'm not saying it's likely, but to say there is zero chance is simply not true.
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Post by theonetheonly on Jan 8, 2022 21:06:58 GMT -5
There is zero chance a program from the MAC is joining the Horzion League. In 2016, Eastern Michigan commissioned a study that suggested dropping football and doing exactly that - joining the Horizon League. I'm not saying it's likely, but to say there is zero chance is simply not true. I have good connections within the MAC league. It isn’t happening. Especially with the college football playoff going to 12.
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Post by stanley on Jan 8, 2022 21:16:04 GMT -5
Since everyone here seems to be doing a little reaching, here's another one - a MAC team or two could easily drop football. Football has been keeping most of the MAC schools' athletic departments in the red. And with the way the Power 5's have college football set up, there's no chance of a MAC football cinderella (At least in basketball, there's a chance - Butler, Loyola, George Mason, etc...). If a MAC school or two drops football, they would fit better into the HL and actually be inside the footprint. Bellarmine, Southern Indiana, Eastern Illinois, Western Illinos, Morehead State - none of those are actually inside the footprint. And honestly, none of those are attractive to me. Well, they're all better than IUPUI, but then EVERY Division 1 program is better than IUPUI. I'm not opposed to the idea. Over the last decade, the MAC has been better at basketball than the HL. Do you think that these schools would be forced to leave the MAC if they drop football? As far as the footprint, from a state perspective, all of the schools mentioned are in the foot print. They just move the concentration a little more south. From an expansion point view, that is the only direction that the HL can move. The MVC is to our west and the A10 is to our east. Of course we do overlap with the MAC. However, I get your point. Some of these schools do not have close airports or interstates. But when you think about it Green Bay is now basically fly to school for some of the HL teams. There is also an oversaturation consideration. One of the primary reasons that YSU was never considered by the MAC is b/c OH is already heavily represented. The concern was recruitment over competition. Maybe we can trade UIPIU for Ball State! As usual, you bring up fair points. If a MAC school dropped football, I don't know if the MAC would ask them to leave or not. The MAC has no basketball-only members, so I would assume they would. Plus, if you're dropping football, my guess is if you're an Eastern Michigan or an Akron (pure speculation), wouldn't you want to be in a league that's in the same geography and doesn't sponsor football? To me, that would make more sense. As to including Kentucky as part of the "footprint," the further south you go, the further away you're getting from anyone not named Wright State, IUPUI or Northern Kentucky. I mean, if St. Bonaventure or Creighton (hypothetical examples) says they want to join the HL, of course you take them. But that's not going to happen, and expanding further out to add average to below average programs to what you already have, I don't see the benefit. That being said, you have a league office that calls Indianapolis "centrally located" to the rest of the teams. It isn't. Ask Milwaukee and Green Bay how "centrally located" Indianapolis is. Then ask them how they'd feel about having to travel further south than Cincinnati, especially after a current member in close city like Chicago leaves. While Ball State is nothing spectacular, I like your thought about trading IUPUI for them. Heck, I'd trade IUPUI for just about anyone!
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Post by stanley on Jan 8, 2022 21:23:12 GMT -5
Screw the footprint, get a team that will make the league better with upside. Morehead, Southern Indiana and Bellermine make it better. Wayne has Loyola like potential. I don't know if any of these teams make the HL better. Morehead the last couple of years is definitely an upgrade over UIC the last few years. Long term, I don't know if they have the finances in place to compete in the HL. Counting their football budget, their athletic department spends less on sports than any other HL team. Bellarmine is still an unproven team but I like their commitment to athletics and they do have the finances to compete in the HL. Southern Indiana hasn't even decided if they are going D1. They did a presentation a few months ago about the potential jump but they also said they needed to DOUBLE their current athletic department spending to do so. They mentioned increasing student fees to make that happen. That is an issue that needs to be worked out but I still like their potential. Wayne State isn't going to be invited, so I'm not wasting more time on them. In regards to the MAC, I just don't see any of their programs wanting to come to the HL even if they have to drop their football program and get booted from the MAC. We The HL would be fools to at least not make an attempt but I don't see it happening. I see what you're saying, but now you're getting further and further away from the supposed mission of the Horizon League - having a conference of schools in big cities. Having one that's not in a big city (like Valpo, which was a strong add at the time) is fine. More than one is now becoming like a subpar basketball-only version of the MAC. You already have Youngstown State, which is a shell of the city it once was and Ft. Wayne. RMU, NKU and Oakland are at least close enough to big cities to be considered there. Wright State was kind of like Valpo, but has Dayton close right there and Cincinnati close enough. If you start adding Southern Indiana and places like that, now you're just another bad mid-major basketball conference, but without a selling point.
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Post by stanley on Jan 8, 2022 21:36:43 GMT -5
In 2016, Eastern Michigan commissioned a study that suggested dropping football and doing exactly that - joining the Horizon League. I'm not saying it's likely, but to say there is zero chance is simply not true. I have good connections within the MAC league. It isn’t happening. Especially with the college football playoff going to 12. Ask your connections how much longer some of their member schools can continue with athletic departments losing millions because of football. I mean, they've gone this long, so maybe they look at it as a worthwhile write-off. But Bowling Green cut baseball before they brought it back because football kills their budget. Same thing with Eastern Michigan and Akron. And they're not the only ones. There's a pride thing in having football for all of these years, but these MAC football programs are mostly not competitive, they draw no one to their games, and for every good year a program like Kent State has, they have anywhere from 10-20 "not good" years and no one going to their games. Since Akron built their new stadium, they've had exactly one year they were competitive in the conference and zero MAC Championships. They've also had no one attend their games. They get more fans for some men's soccer games. I just don't see football at the MAC level for some of these schools as sustainable moving forward. And outside of Toledo and Western Michigan, none of these programs have had a season that would be remotely close to cracking a 12-team playoff. And when the football playoffs do expand, what is the Power 5 going to do? Take 11 Power 5 schools and MAYBE one school outside the Power 5 that would have to be undefeated. If the MAC thinks that one school could be them, God Bless them. And go back to my original point, I said a MAC school joining the HL would be a stretch. But as for a zero chance? That may be pride talking from your MAC sources. Common sense (and the EMU study) says that dropping football and joining a basketball-only conference isn't a thought that hasn't crossed a least one MAC school's mind.
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Post by ede on Jan 8, 2022 22:01:50 GMT -5
125 mill huh. Impressive. So basically it's not all that bad at Wright State
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Post by gbanks on Jan 8, 2022 22:02:18 GMT -5
I have good connections within the MAC league. It isn’t happening. Especially with the college football playoff going to 12. Ask your connections how much longer some of their member schools can continue with athletic departments losing millions because of football. I mean, they've gone this long, so maybe they look at it as a worthwhile write-off. But Bowling Green cut baseball before they brought it back because football kills their budget. Same thing with Eastern Michigan and Akron. And they're not the only ones. There's a pride thing in having football for all of these years, but these MAC football programs are mostly not competitive, they draw no one to their games, and for every good year a program like Kent State has, they have anywhere from 10-20 "not good" years and no one going to their games. Since Akron built their new stadium, they've had exactly one year they were competitive in the conference and zero MAC Championships. They've also had no one attend their games. They get more fans for some men's soccer games. I just don't see football at the MAC level for some of these schools as sustainable moving forward. And outside of Toledo and Western Michigan, none of these programs have had a season that would be remotely close to cracking a 12-team playoff. And when the football playoffs do expand, what is the Power 5 going to do? Take 11 Power 5 schools and MAYBE one school outside the Power 5 that would have to be undefeated. If the MAC thinks that one school could be them, God Bless them. And go back to my original point, I said a MAC school joining the HL would be a stretch. But as for a zero chance? That may be pride talking from your MAC sources. Common sense (and the EMU study) says that dropping football and joining a basketball-only conference isn't a thought that hasn't crossed a least one MAC school's mind. I did a search on "Eastern Michigan drop football Horizon League" and several 2016 articles appeared. I think they decided to cut 4 sports b/c the MAC distributes $2 Mil per year for football. They did not want to give the TV money up. I also noticed that Buffalo and Bowling Green are struggling with their football programs. Thus this is not too far fetched. Football in general is a very expensive activity. Unless you plan on participating at the P5 level, it's a waste of money.
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Post by ede on Jan 8, 2022 22:15:05 GMT -5
I agree. It's really a shame about the MAC they try so hard and that conference has so much history. But when I watch Akron play in that shiney new stadium with few fans it's sad. Ohio is is football state. Why don't they get support I wonder.
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Post by gbanks on Jan 8, 2022 22:19:19 GMT -5
BigD, just out of curiosity. Is Morehead State's financial situation worse than WSU? Honest question b/c I really don't know. I did a quick look and all I could really see is a situation regarding $10 Mil loans coming due on the horizon. I'm sure there are other considerations and negative impacts I have yet to uncover. The enrollment appears to be about the same as Green Bay. The next part of the question is the sustainability comment you made. I'm trying to figure out if you are indirectly saying the Wright State is in danger of not being able to field a strong program in the near future. Morehead State's athletic department has cut spending for 5 years in a row. The school has not been doing well and the state has cut funding to all universities the last few years. Their endowment is 43 million. Wright State doesn't really have a financial problem as much as we have an image problem due to issues with our faculty union. At one point in time we had an enrollment of 16K. We had a faculty large enough to easily educate 16-18K students. Our problem is that enrollment, like the enrollment of most universities has declined over the last 10 years. We currently have an enrollment of 12K but we still had the same size faculty up until the end of last year. Even though we have been employing too many faculty members for years we have still been able to turn a profit the last several years. We were finally able to make cuts to our faculty this past spring which should help us be even more profitable. Our endowment is still 125 million dollars. Ok, I think I'm hearing that the labor expense was too high (because it was not sized correctly) and that along with other issues this has been corrected. Good to hear that WSU has stabilized the situation. However, it appears there still may be a lingering communication issue. This is the first time I'm hearing this has been corrected. Granted if it's new news, then I would not be aware of the revised messaging. As you implied there are many schools impacted by the reduced demographics and reduced state budgets, Morehead would not be any different in that regards. However, you are saying due to their small enrollment, their ability to overcome the reductions would be much harder to overcome. Does that pretty much sum it up?
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Post by gbanks on Jan 8, 2022 22:26:34 GMT -5
I agree. It's really a shame about the MAC they try so hard and that conference has so much history. But when I watch Akron play in that shiney new stadium with few fans it's sad. Ohio is is football state. Why don't they get support I wonder. This is pretty much the case in most of the MAC schools. Students are not showing up to the games. If you are a student at Miami, you more likely to go to see a Redhawk hockey match than see their football team. The only DI football they pay attention to are the buckeyes.
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