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Post by frankiemeatballs on Mar 20, 2021 10:20:03 GMT -5
If we do lose Gates, what’s a realistic short list of replacements?
I’ve mentioned Rob Summers as a candidate from the beginning. Head coaching experience and would hopefully be able to retain Dru Joyce III for some continuity on staff for recruiting and culture.
Jordan Mincy was a finalist last time and may get a call back. I know people who know him personally and speak very highly of him. Would be a first time head coach but there’s a lot to like about him as a candidate.
Jermaine Kimbrough? His name comes up on every CSU search. Although he’s yet to land a head coaching gig, he’s still only in his early 40’s and he has continued to work his way up as an assistant. He is currently at Loyola after stops at Nevada and Wyoming since leaving CSU. He’s been on winning mid major staffs throughout his career and has been an excellent recruiter, plus he has obvious ties to Cleveland. There’s a lot to like there, maybe even more so than a high major assistant making the leap to head coach.
Are there any other upcoming assistants who may have a connection to Scott Garrett?
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 11:04:08 GMT -5
Keep summers and Joyce if they don't follow Gates. So we don't lose our recruits and lose players to Transfer.
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Post by ac on Mar 20, 2021 11:05:04 GMT -5
I'd be shocked if Gates is hired by a big program after only 2 years
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Post by csuexpert on Mar 20, 2021 11:54:44 GMT -5
AC, very good point. Coach Gates is only ending his first full year of his program rebuild. Of course he has done an outstanding job with the limited talent he has to work with. I assume he does not consider the foundation of the program as finished. As many of you have pointed out there is glaring need to bring in bigger, more athletic talent. This takes time. Therefore, I would be surprised and disappointed if he leaves soon. Leaving now after just beginning to build a foundation doesn't sit well with me. Granted he has proven to successfully motivate and raise the play of mostly average (compared to other NCAA tournament mid-majors) players I believe his work here isn't done, yet. That being said money talks and many ADs from other schools are looking for a quick fix to their programs. Plus, Coach Gates' contract is not prohibiting his exit, if he so chooses. Hopefully, he will stick around a few more years to finish his program build and make it sustainable for the next coach. Anybody up for establishing a gofundme account for coach?
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 11:56:27 GMT -5
I'd be shocked if Gates is hired by a big program after only 2 years Thad Matta did one year a Butler and was hired away sooooo
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 11:59:38 GMT -5
AC, very good point. Coach Gates is only ending his first full year of his program rebuild. Of course he has done an outstanding job with the limited talent he has to work with. I assume he does not consider the foundation of the program as finished. As many of you have pointed out there is glaring need to bring in bigger, more athletic talent. This takes time. Therefore, I would be surprised and disappointed if he leaves soon. Leaving now after just beginning to build a foundation doesn't sit well with me. Granted he has proven to successfully motivate and raise the play of mostly average (compared to other NCAA tournament mid-majors) players I believe his work here isn't done, yet. That being said money talks and many ADs from other schools are looking for a quick fix to their programs. Plus, Coach Gates' contract is not prohibiting his exit, if he so chooses. Hopefully, he will stick around a few more years to finish his program build and make it sustainable for the next coach. Anybody up for establishing a gofundme account for coach? You say that jokingly, but that's not a bad idea, Iam sure Garrett is looking for money.
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Post by ac on Mar 20, 2021 12:23:13 GMT -5
Matta went from Butler to Xavier. I think going from csu to big 10 program is a bigger leap and many of the schools that his name has been attached to aren't sure things for success DePaul BC, Minnesota quality coaches have failed there.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Mar 20, 2021 12:34:37 GMT -5
I'd be shocked if Gates is hired by a big program after only 2 years Thad Matta did one year a Butler and was hired away sooooo Matta did one year at Horizon League Butler and then two years at A-10 Xavier before going to Ohio State. The equivalent here would be Gates moving to a higher level mid major before eventually going to a high major. Going from a bottom tier conference with only one winning season in two total years as head coach to a high major team still feels like a big jump. He’s been mentioned for BC and Penn State but didn’t get those jobs (even though both hires were questionable IMO). I see Minnesota as equal to (BC) or better than (PSU) those jobs.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Mar 20, 2021 13:56:08 GMT -5
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Post by gbanks on Mar 20, 2021 14:48:22 GMT -5
Gates last 2 predecessors did the same thing. Walters from Kent to Rutgers and Felton from Western Kentucky to Georgia tech. Gates does of the advantage of Hamilton's mentorship, as BigD pointed out.
At this point in his life Gates is going to want to test himself. Not sure which test he'll like better. Is the challenge of building a program from the ground up (at CSU) or take a floundering big program to the next level more to his liking? Is Gates more of an entrepreneur charting his own course or manager maneuvering in institutional dynamics of the various stakeholders?
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 15:18:56 GMT -5
Gates last 2 predecessors did the same thing. Walters from Kent to Rutgers and Felton from Western Kentucky to Georgia tech. Gates does of the advantage of Hamilton's mentorship, as BigD pointed out. At this point in his life Gates is going to want to test himself. Not sure which test he'll like better. Is the challenge of building a program from the ground up (at CSU) or take a floundering big program to the next level more to his liking? Is Gates more of an entrepreneur charting his own course or manager maneuvering in institutional dynamics of the various stakeholders? well said excellent by you and Big D.
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 15:20:18 GMT -5
Hamilton is one of the most respected coaches in the game today, coming from that coach Tree is on par with coach k tree.
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 15:22:04 GMT -5
doesn't mean a thing. If the Pa5 comes with P5 money all that will go out the window. all depends on what Gates want to do.
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Post by gbanks on Mar 20, 2021 15:38:50 GMT -5
doesn't mean a thing. If the Pa5 comes with P5 money all that will go out the window. all depends on what Gates want to do. It's not always about the most immediate pay day. If it was, he would not have taken the job a CSU in the first place. Having said that, the AD has to find a way to increase his compensation and the program's funding. You have to give him the tools to build the program. Otherwise, it's going to be a easy decision.
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 16:29:24 GMT -5
doesn't mean a thing. If the Pa5 comes with P5 money all that will go out the window. all depends on what Gates want to do. It's not always about the most immediate pay day. If it was, he would not have taken the job a CSU in the first place. Having said that, the AD has to find a way to increase his compensation and the program's funding. You have to give him the tools to build the program. Otherwise, it's going to be a easy decision. excellent point,but Gates may've had an addition by subtraction plan, Hell,he was making more money at FSU I believe, and knew he might take at hit in pay by a few thousand,turn the team around for a bigger pay day later. But u make a good point. This is a watershed moment for Cleveland State I believe they are going to have to decide what kind of program they want. A mid/low major that occasionally has a good year or a potential Mid Major power.Gates is the guy that can get us to that level. He and Nagy are the best coaches in the league,Nagy team seem collapse in the post season for some odd reason.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Mar 20, 2021 18:20:54 GMT -5
Gates last 2 predecessors did the same thing. Walters from Kent to Rutgers and Felton from Western Kentucky to Georgia tech. Gates does of the advantage of Hamilton's mentorship, as BigD pointed out. At this point in his life Gates is going to want to test himself. Not sure which test he'll like better. Is the challenge of building a program from the ground up (at CSU) or take a floundering big program to the next level more to his liking? Is Gates more of an entrepreneur charting his own course or manager maneuvering in institutional dynamics of the various stakeholders? Let’s look deeper into the Gary Waters and Dennis Felton comparisons. Waters had 5 seasons of head coaching experience, including 3 straight 20 win seasons. He had 2 NCAA bids and an NIT bid. They went to the NIT semi finals in his second-to-last year and won a game in the NCAA in his last year. Waters left for Rutgers, which hadn’t been to the NCAA in 10 years and that came when they were in the A10. In 6 seasons since joining the Big East, Rutgers finished higher than 10th only once and that was a 6th place finish 3 seasons before Gary got there. Rutgers was one of the worst major conference jobs. Felton also had 5 seasons of head coaching experience, including 3 straight trips to the NCAA tournament. Felton left WKU for Georgia, which was facing major sanctions after firing Jim Herrick. Georgia had only made the tournament in 4 of the last 12 seasons and hadn’t been past the first round in 8 years. They ended up having a post season ban in Felton’s first year and being on probation for the following 4 years, which included scholarship reductions for three of those years. Georgia was a bottom tier major conference job at the time. Both Waters and Felton had more experience and more success at the mid major level than Gates. And some of the jobs that Gates is being rumored for, like Minnesota, are in considerably better shape than what Rutgers and Georgia were respectively. I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m just saying it’s a huge jump from one good season at a terrible program in a bottom third league to a mid tier major conference job. He either needs more experience or it needs to be a train wreck of a job.
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Post by theonetheonly on Mar 20, 2021 18:57:42 GMT -5
Marquette is the school I would be most worried about.
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 19:23:52 GMT -5
Marquette is the school I would be most worried about. yep, and Depaul.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Mar 20, 2021 19:38:24 GMT -5
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 19:56:37 GMT -5
you beat me to it Frankie. They say a " significant investment in Gates" Gonna be an interesting summers guys." If Garrett can pull this off,this program could be on the cusp of doing great things. How can u beat salaries of 1.5 to 2 million/year? Where will Garrett get the $$$$. Has he found a booster with deep pockets,stay tuned.
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Post by gbanks on Mar 20, 2021 21:59:03 GMT -5
Sounds like CSU is playing this the right way and that is very encouraging to see.
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 23:10:49 GMT -5
Sounds like CSU is playing this the right way and that is very encouraging to see. indeed things are going very interesting this summer
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Post by ede on Mar 20, 2021 23:14:11 GMT -5
For years we've want young hungry visionary to build something special on the downtown campus, are Gates n Garrett those visionaries?
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Post by pathfinder on Mar 21, 2021 8:17:59 GMT -5
Gates last 2 predecessors did the same thing. Walters from Kent to Rutgers and Felton from Western Kentucky to Georgia tech. Gates does of the advantage of Hamilton's mentorship, as BigD pointed out. At this point in his life Gates is going to want to test himself. Not sure which test he'll like better. Is the challenge of building a program from the ground up (at CSU) or take a floundering big program to the next level more to his liking? Is Gates more of an entrepreneur charting his own course or manager maneuvering in institutional dynamics of the various stakeholders? Let’s look deeper into the Gary Waters and Dennis Felton comparisons. Waters had 5 seasons of head coaching experience, including 3 straight 20 win seasons. He had 2 NCAA bids and an NIT bid. They went to the NIT semi finals in his second-to-last year and won a game in the NCAA in his last year. Waters left for Rutgers, which hadn’t been to the NCAA in 10 years and that came when they were in the A10. In 6 seasons since joining the Big East, Rutgers finished higher than 10th only once and that was a 6th place finish 3 seasons before Gary got there. Rutgers was one of the worst major conference jobs. Felton also had 5 seasons of head coaching experience, including 3 straight trips to the NCAA tournament. Felton left WKU for Georgia, which was facing major sanctions after firing Jim Herrick. Georgia had only made the tournament in 4 of the last 12 seasons and hadn’t been past the first round in 8 years. They ended up having a post season ban in Felton’s first year and being on probation for the following 4 years, which included scholarship reductions for three of those years. Georgia was a bottom tier major conference job at the time. Both Waters and Felton had more experience and more success at the mid major level than Gates. And some of the jobs that Gates is being rumored for, like Minnesota, are in considerably better shape than what Rutgers and Georgia were respectively. I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m just saying it’s a huge jump from one good season at a terrible program in a bottom third league to a mid tier major conference job. He either needs more experience or it needs to be a train wreck of a job. Better examples if you want to worry: Bobby Hurley. Buffalo was first head coaching job. He went 19-10 in 1st season, then 23-10 with NCAA bid and first round lost. Moved to Arizona State. Scott Drew: 1 year at Valpo (1st HC job), moved to Baylor. LaVall Jordan: 1 year at Milwaukee (1st HC job, 11-24, which was much better than expected--sort of like Gates after last season). moved to Butler. Stan Heath: 1 year at Kent State (1st job), reached Elite 8, hired by Arkansas. He's not going to get hired at a place like Indiana, which will spend whatever it takes and is one of the very top jobs in the country, but there are lots of P5 and Big East schools that aren't train wrecks that might be interested.
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Post by theonetheonly on Mar 21, 2021 8:41:06 GMT -5
I’m not sure Dennis Gates would view any job as a train wreck. He came here for what is a difficult job already and took it under some of the worst possible conditions to start with possible outside of facing major NCAA sanctions.
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Post by gbanks on Mar 21, 2021 9:14:16 GMT -5
As long as the Vikes go All In, I'm good with any outcome after that. If Gates wants to move on, that's fine. Ultimately he has to do the right thing for him.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Mar 21, 2021 10:53:53 GMT -5
Let’s look deeper into the Gary Waters and Dennis Felton comparisons. Waters had 5 seasons of head coaching experience, including 3 straight 20 win seasons. He had 2 NCAA bids and an NIT bid. They went to the NIT semi finals in his second-to-last year and won a game in the NCAA in his last year. Waters left for Rutgers, which hadn’t been to the NCAA in 10 years and that came when they were in the A10. In 6 seasons since joining the Big East, Rutgers finished higher than 10th only once and that was a 6th place finish 3 seasons before Gary got there. Rutgers was one of the worst major conference jobs. Felton also had 5 seasons of head coaching experience, including 3 straight trips to the NCAA tournament. Felton left WKU for Georgia, which was facing major sanctions after firing Jim Herrick. Georgia had only made the tournament in 4 of the last 12 seasons and hadn’t been past the first round in 8 years. They ended up having a post season ban in Felton’s first year and being on probation for the following 4 years, which included scholarship reductions for three of those years. Georgia was a bottom tier major conference job at the time. Both Waters and Felton had more experience and more success at the mid major level than Gates. And some of the jobs that Gates is being rumored for, like Minnesota, are in considerably better shape than what Rutgers and Georgia were respectively. I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m just saying it’s a huge jump from one good season at a terrible program in a bottom third league to a mid tier major conference job. He either needs more experience or it needs to be a train wreck of a job. Better examples if you want to worry: Bobby Hurley. Buffalo was first head coaching job. He went 19-10 in 1st season, then 23-10 with NCAA bid and first round lost. Moved to Arizona State. Scott Drew: 1 year at Valpo (1st HC job), moved to Baylor. LaVall Jordan: 1 year at Milwaukee (1st HC job, 11-24, which was much better than expected--sort of like Gates after last season). moved to Butler. Stan Heath: 1 year at Kent State (1st job), reached Elite 8, hired by Arkansas. He's not going to get hired at a place like Indiana, which will spend whatever it takes and is one of the very top jobs in the country, but there are lots of P5 and Big East schools that aren't train wrecks that might be interested. It’s funny, early this season I was the first person on this board to mention the possibility of Gates leaving and I was told I was crazy. I brought up Bobby Hurley, Scott Drew, Thad Matta, Matt Painter and Chris Holtmann as examples of coaches who spent 1-2 years at mid majors before moving up. I still think it’s a real possibility he leaves. I’m now just pointing out how big of a jump it would be for some of these jobs that are being mentioned. MVC, A-10, even mid tier Big East? Absolutely. Really bad P5 job like Rutgers when Waters took over (as I pointed out up thread)? Sure. But a mid tier Big 10 job like Minnesota? A school that has been to the tournament multiple times recently and has literally reached the tournament under every single coach they’ve had since the 70’s? I’d be leery if I were a Minnesota fan. And again, digging deeper into the examples you provided. Arizona State hadn’t been to the Sweet 16 since 1995 and only made the tournament 3 times in the 20 years that followed before they hired Bobby Hurley. Plus Hurley was nationally known as a player and had a reputation of being plugged into the top recruiting channels because of his name and his family connections. Scott Drew took over a job that was worse than Rutgers when Waters went to RU. Baylor had a guy murder one of his teammates and the entire program was engulfed in a major scandal. They came close to getting the death penalty and had some of the harshest sanctions of all time. Jordan was a Butler alum and had been an assistant there before going to Milwaukee. Stan Heath is probably the best comparison and that turned out to be a pretty big failure on the part of Arkansas.
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Post by frankiemeatballs on Mar 21, 2021 13:28:29 GMT -5
If we do lose Gates, what’s a realistic short list of replacements? I’ve mentioned Rob Summers as a candidate from the beginning. Head coaching experience and would hopefully be able to retain Dru Joyce III for some continuity on staff for recruiting and culture. Jordan Mincy was a finalist last time and may get a call back. I know people who know him personally and speak very highly of him. Would be a first time head coach but there’s a lot to like about him as a candidate. Jermaine Kimbrough? His name comes up on every CSU search. Although he’s yet to land a head coaching gig, he’s still only in his early 40’s and he has continued to work his way up as an assistant. He is currently at Loyola after stops at Nevada and Wyoming since leaving CSU. He’s been on winning mid major staffs throughout his career and has been an excellent recruiter, plus he has obvious ties to Cleveland. There’s a lot to like there, maybe even more so than a high major assistant making the leap to head coach. Are there any other upcoming assistants who may have a connection to Scott Garrett? Jermaine Kimbrough into the Sweet 16 with Loyola.
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Post by stanley on Mar 22, 2021 14:32:54 GMT -5
Better examples if you want to worry: Bobby Hurley. Buffalo was first head coaching job. He went 19-10 in 1st season, then 23-10 with NCAA bid and first round lost. Moved to Arizona State. Scott Drew: 1 year at Valpo (1st HC job), moved to Baylor. LaVall Jordan: 1 year at Milwaukee (1st HC job, 11-24, which was much better than expected--sort of like Gates after last season). moved to Butler. Stan Heath: 1 year at Kent State (1st job), reached Elite 8, hired by Arkansas. He's not going to get hired at a place like Indiana, which will spend whatever it takes and is one of the very top jobs in the country, but there are lots of P5 and Big East schools that aren't train wrecks that might be interested. It’s funny, early this season I was the first person on this board to mention the possibility of Gates leaving and I was told I was crazy. I brought up Bobby Hurley, Scott Drew, Thad Matta, Matt Painter and Chris Holtmann as examples of coaches who spent 1-2 years at mid majors before moving up. I still think it’s a real possibility he leaves. I’m now just pointing out how big of a jump it would be for some of these jobs that are being mentioned. MVC, A-10, even mid tier Big East? Absolutely. Really bad P5 job like Rutgers when Waters took over (as I pointed out up thread)? Sure. But a mid tier Big 10 job like Minnesota? A school that has been to the tournament multiple times recently and has literally reached the tournament under every single coach they’ve had since the 70’s? I’d be leery if I were a Minnesota fan. And again, digging deeper into the examples you provided. Arizona State hadn’t been to the Sweet 16 since 1995 and only made the tournament 3 times in the 20 years that followed before they hired Bobby Hurley. Plus Hurley was nationally known as a player and had a reputation of being plugged into the top recruiting channels because of his name and his family connections. Scott Drew took over a job that was worse than Rutgers when Waters went to RU. Baylor had a guy murder one of his teammates and the entire program was engulfed in a major scandal. They came close to getting the death penalty and had some of the harshest sanctions of all time. Jordan was a Butler alum and had been an assistant there before going to Milwaukee. Stan Heath is probably the best comparison and that turned out to be a pretty big failure on the part of Arkansas. Pretty good analysis here, Frankie. Is Gates going to leave this off-season? I think we'll know soon. I'm sure he's going to give Scott Garrett the first chance to keep him. After all, Garrett did take a chance on him and give him the opportunity to be in the position he's in. I agree that not every opening would be a fit for Gates and agree 100% with what Frankie said about Minnesota. That being said, there will certainly be programs that will be attractive to Gates and that will probably want him. I don't think money is the sole factor, but yes, as always, it will most likely be the biggest. If CSU can give Gates a significant raise and increase the budget where CSU can possibly start buying some games or making travel easier (flying charters) or getting into a big MTE that gives CSU a legit chance to knock off P5's on a neutral floor, Gates would probably be smart to stay at CSU for the time being. His value as a HC will only increase. And if he keeps the program going in the direction it's going, he may never have to leave. Look at Mark Few. All things considered, I put the odds at him leaving right now at 50/50. But who knows, by next week (or even tomorrow lol), maybe those odds go to 90/10.
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Post by ede on Mar 22, 2021 15:56:03 GMT -5
It’s funny, early this season I was the first person on this board to mention the possibility of Gates leaving and I was told I was crazy. I brought up Bobby Hurley, Scott Drew, Thad Matta, Matt Painter and Chris Holtmann as examples of coaches who spent 1-2 years at mid majors before moving up. I still think it’s a real possibility he leaves. I’m now just pointing out how big of a jump it would be for some of these jobs that are being mentioned. MVC, A-10, even mid tier Big East? Absolutely. Really bad P5 job like Rutgers when Waters took over (as I pointed out up thread)? Sure. But a mid tier Big 10 job like Minnesota? A school that has been to the tournament multiple times recently and has literally reached the tournament under every single coach they’ve had since the 70’s? I’d be leery if I were a Minnesota fan. And again, digging deeper into the examples you provided. Arizona State hadn’t been to the Sweet 16 since 1995 and only made the tournament 3 times in the 20 years that followed before they hired Bobby Hurley. Plus Hurley was nationally known as a player and had a reputation of being plugged into the top recruiting channels because of his name and his family connections. Scott Drew took over a job that was worse than Rutgers when Waters went to RU. Baylor had a guy murder one of his teammates and the entire program was engulfed in a major scandal. They came close to getting the death penalty and had some of the harshest sanctions of all time. Jordan was a Butler alum and had been an assistant there before going to Milwaukee. Stan Heath is probably the best comparison and that turned out to be a pretty big failure on the part of Arkansas. Pretty good analysis here, Frankie. Is Gates going to leave this off-season? I think we'll know soon. I'm sure he's going to give Scott Garrett the first chance to keep him. After all, Garrett did take a chance on him and give him the opportunity to be in the position he's in. I agree that not every opening would be a fit for Gates and agree 100% with what Frankie said about Minnesota. That being said, there will certainly be programs that will be attractive to Gates and that will probably want him. I don't think money is the sole factor, but yes, as always, it will most likely be the biggest. If CSU can give Gates a significant raise and increase the budget where CSU can possibly start buying some games or making travel easier (flying charters) or getting into a big MTE that gives CSU a legit chance to knock off P5's on a neutral floor, Gates would probably be smart to stay at CSU for the time being. His value as a HC will only increase. And if he keeps the program going in the direction it's going, he may never have to leave. Look at Mark Few. All things considered, I put the odds at him leaving right now at 50/50. But who knows, by next week (or even tomorrow lol), maybe those odds go to 90/10. Well.... the Terry Pluto article said that Cleveland State was going to make a "significant investment in Gates" So Garrett and the president has a plan put in place,probably when they saw the way the season was going thet knew they were going to have increase the budget. He's raised some $$$$ but will need more and said they would give Gates the tools he needs. So fingers crossed
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